Thread: Ram 2 Mar 2014, 14:15 PM
For everyone claiming that there is no AT in T3, I have no trouble using T34s backed by ZiS guns and conscripts for AT nade snares. It plays almost exactly like Americans from vCoH. I never expect a Sherman to go head to head with a Panther, but he screens my ATguns from infantry while the ATgun threatens the armor.
Ram is a stupid extra gimmick that I would be fine with simply removing, but in the bigger interest I would like to see it changed to something more enjoyable. I agree putting all the AT and all the AI in separate tiers was kind of a dumb move, I'd rather see T70 and SU76 swapped so you can get heavy AI + light AT (T3) or light AI and heavy AT (T4).
This is in 1v1 and 2v2. I suspect lack of mobile tank AT is much more of an issue in larger games, though. |
Thread: Ram 28 Feb 2014, 16:11 PM
This has been discussed to death already and the general consensus is always that:
1.) Yes ram is too impactful to be left up to RNG. There are not enough rams in a round of gameplay to make it balanced one way or another. You can ram a fresh tiger on the first try and win the game or you can throw away an entire T34 army for no effect. Contrast that to infantry small arms fire where RNG is highly prevalent but hundreds of shots per round eventually average out.
2.) Remove ram and replace it with upgun on T34 to the 85 version to increase its AT capabilities and allow it to scale late game.
3.) Alternatively leave ram in but change it to 100% crew shock with durations and damage decided by size of the target. Ramming a tiger would leave the T34 shocked and more hurt than the tiger, ramming a P4 would be about equal. That way it is a consistent "snare" effect that doesn't dramatically swing one way or another. Even in this case, give T34 upgrade to 85 somehow.
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This game isn´t consistent.
- 50 range StuG - 60 range SU85... reason: "The one is an Assault gun used as a tank destroyer". I call that bullshit since the StuG was much better and basically a tank hunter late in the war.
- 2 men snipers vs 1 man sniper
etc. etc.
I just meant that the Ppsh should definitely be dropped, because its a huge balance issue. That one dude made it sound like only G43s should drop.
I disagree. Either all doctrinal upgrades should drop or none should. Otherwise you're just cherry picking particular ones you like more.
PPSh are also not a huge problem. Are they useful? Yep. Overpowered? No. |
ROFL @ above, you really a Mad Hater 
Say in truth,
Now, he suggesting a squad, with 3 dudes, armed with a high accuracy high range weapon. That's mean they can
- kill men faster than Soviet sniper team
- more survivable than Soviet sniper team
- completely defeat the purpose of Soviet sniper team
- defeat the purpose of G43 Grens
Giving an example, as Ostheer
He can have this combination:
- a Gren or Osttruppen for faust
- a crapload of Marksman squad
- or an Officer for even more accuracy
- a MG42 at back for backup
This is even more disgusting than the Guard/sniper combo, cons, penals, maxim, 82mm mortar, sniper team just instant death to this deathball.
Assume if Soviet get this Markman squad too, it would be an all game long Markman vs Markman squad game, because Gren will die like flies too, neglecting the cover system and only base on LUCK.
This is a very terrible idea IMO.
Having small HP doesn't mean they are weak, as long as they can wipe out or force retreat anything. Remember SSSSS in 2.602 vCOH?
Back in vCOH, sniper mind game is so great and true representative of skill. Losing a countersnipe does not lose you the game. Even wehr went volks volks sniper MG start, you don't really need to kill that pesky sniper if you stall him well, harass the point well, lure him into mines or flankable position.
But in COH2, there is no workable counters of sniper that do their job well, or base on luck. That's the problem.
To be blunt, I'm not sure you're reading this properly at all Porygon. Most of your points are directly contradictory to things in the original post.
Kill men faster than soviet sniper team? I specifically said that it would be a change to not 1 shot 1 kill. On top of that the suggestion is that they're not 100% accurate and can miss due to cover, armor, anything else that applies to every single other small arms fire in the game. This is not even remotely the same as SSSSSS. 6 marksman squads would not inflict 6 casualties every round, they would inflict up to 6 hits of some amount of damage per round. Like every single other small arms fire.
More -predictably- survivable is a good thing, especially for Ostheer. It removes the "pray to the rng god that your mortar round lands perfectly" or even the stupid countersnipe gimmick in vCoH where if you're unlucky, you're just boned. It moves them closer towards regular infantry but still more fragile.
Completely defeat the purpose of the Soviet sniper team? This is where I don't think you actually read my post - it's a complete replacement for snipers on both sides.
G43 grens still have faust, armor, better health, don't have the longer aim time that the snipers/marksman do, and are substantially cheaper both to purchase and to reinforce. I can't see how you would think this is a replacement or obsolescence of that unit, and even if it were there are plenty of other things you could do like give the marksman 1/2 capping speed to further differentiate them.
EDIT: To be clear, if people don't like the idea then fine, I am not butthurt about it. It's just an idea / suggestion. But failing to read and jumping to conclusions like SSSSS 2.0 is not going to get us anywhere. Thanks. |
Great, then those Marksman squad = new Gren and Cons
Does it solve anything?
I'm not sure how a smaller squad with 1/2 the health, no armor (in case of grens), no faust/atnade/molotov/oorah, higher cost and reinforce cost, lack of upgrades like LMG/PPSH, and vulnerable at close range due to poor accuracy would replace Grens or Cons. I might have overlooked something?
The problem it is attempting to solve is stated in the original post, but to TLDR it it's to make current snipers fit into the mechanics the whole rest of the game plays with instead of being special snowflakes. |
In your mind would these squads maintain the camp abilities of the sniper (along with I guess the freeze protection) or would they be just like regular infantry?
Also (I known the numbers were only for an example) but it would have to be ensured that the squads have similar DPS at range. Either give the sovs extra men like the gren/con setup or just up the rifle damage to be equivilant for these particular weapons.
I'm not sure if i like doctrinal snipers though just because of the imbalanve it could cause. Imagine the amount of QQ you'd see here if soviets could call in their sniper trsms and still have mortars/maxims/zis and in additon the german player hss no sniper at all. (The same would apply vice versa i guess but since germans love to whine im using them as an example here)
In general its a good idea eventhough im in the "snipers are fine the way they are" camp (although a unit like jeeps/motorcycles/battlebarges would be a good addition)
Edit: Another nice feature to add to these squads would be a munitions cost snipe ability kinda like the brits had with the recon upgrade in vcoh. This way the feeling of snipers is maintained plus if you really need to kill a particular unit (say hmg gunner) you can do it for a cost.
In my mind the squad would function just like the existing snipers - camo in cover, freeze resistance, high sight range.
I like the munitions based snipe approach - at least then you're paying for temporarily breaking the rules. If it had a well balanced cost/cooldown that could be useful while not being over the top.
EDIT: I'm not wild about doctrinal snipers but I just threw it out as an idea. I agree that this could cause more problems than solutions, but at least then you could make it come at a CP cost where things like tanks were already around to prevent early game dominance. Or something like that. |
I posted this in the current Sniper balance thread ( http://www.coh2.org/topic/13308/sniper-balance) but felt that it was too buried at the end and sort of in a different direction than that entire thread. As such I'm reposting it as a standalone to see what anyone might think.
I had a thought about snipers the other night. I think the fundamental issue has been laid out before in other threads that the current sniper just doesn't fit the rest of the game. There's nothing else that is "1 hit, 1 kill", disregards accuracy, is so expensive and fragile, and can have such an impact on the game. It basically breaks the rules by which every single other unit plays.
This was a big problem in vCoH as well, creating what old players will remember as the sniper wars mini game. People generally hated it or praised it for its high micro / tactical requirements, but at the end of the day the person winning the sniper war was likely to win the game. That old mantra of "he who controls the snipers controls the ATGs and thus controls the tanks".
In CoH2 it's not a straight copy, but the general issues remain. Following is my proposal on how they might be tweaked. Any numbers are purely a starting point or for example, don't focus on them.
If snipers on both sides were changed to say "Marksman" squad, that might allow them to fit into the game more appropriately. Basically a 3man squad with 1 spotter and 2 scoped rifles. The scoped rifles are for all intents and purposes identical to the script/gren counterpart except with their accuracy tables inverted (and maintaining their current extra range). High accuracy at long range, poor accuracy up close, and average at middle. Instead of each shot causing instant death with long aim time, they would have a moderate aim time and otherwise fire "normally" but deal increased damage on a successful hit.
The focus of this change is to preserve the sniper's role (long range AI and scouting) but folding it back into the rest of the game's rules regarding accuracy, unit health, etc. This change would hopefully also allow making the squads bigger to help mitigate the random 1shot potential that exists today and would make their impact and presence in the game more consistent and balanced.
Snipers as they exist today could be moved into doctrinal units if they really wanted to keep them, but at least then they could be evaluated separately as non core units.
Thoughts? |
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I had a thought about this the other night. I think the fundamental issue has been laid out before where the sniper just doesn't fit the rest of the game. There's nothing else that is so blindly "1 hit, 1 kill" and is so expensive yet so fragile. This was a problem in vCoH as well, but perhaps mitigated because the snipers were equivalent.
If snipers were changed to say "Marksman" squad, that might allow them to fit into the game more appropriately. Basically a 3 man squad with 1 spotter and 2 scoped rifles. The scoped rifles are for all intents and purposes identical to the script/gren counterpart except with their accuracy tables inverted (and maintaining their current extra range). Extremely high accuracy at long range, poor accuracy up close, and average at middle. Instead of 1 hit 1 kill with long aim time, they would just fire "normally" and deal normal damage.
EDIT: Clarification.
Surely there would be other changes that fall out as a result of this, but the take away idea here is how to make snipers fit the CoH model better. I think this keeps the intent and feel of snipers but without the complete polarization effect we have today. |
Update September 10th, 2013
JU-87 Anti-Tank Support
• Loiter radius area from 50 to 60
• Delay between attacks from 4s to 18s
• Target lead in distance from 12 to 10
• Target lead out distance from 6 to 5
• Loiter timer from 60s to 80s
• Duration time from 50s to 100s
• Recharge time from 90s to 190s
• Modified UI Barrage Radius to be more noticeable
• Damage from 100 to 80
• Cooldown from 0.25 to 0.125
Updates for November 12th, 2013
JU-87 Anti-tank Support
- Damage from 80 to 120
- Deflection damage enabled; now deals 80 damage on deflect
- Attacks per plane from 4 to 3
And as far as I know, it has target priority like other units. Like, armors will first engage armors, infantry will engage infantry etc. In this case, armor first, if not present, infantries.
I don't think those stats apply to the single pass version. I have been trying them out primarily in 2v2 and the impact leaves a lot to be desired. It failed to kill an immobile Katyusha for example, leaving it at around 10% health. For reference, basically any tank round is capable of one shotting those, so that should put the damage in perspective.
I think in general the new airstrikes are a lot more interesting and usable, but some of them could use some refinement. I agree that the IL2 single pass is basically just for the "red flare scare" along with some suppression. The german anti inf strafe seems to be about right - long enough cooldown to avoid constant spam and to make choosing it a decision, cheap enough that it doesn't require hoarding munitions, and with an appreciable impact of pinning everything in a radius. |
You're paying for weapon upgrade. You get this ability as a bonus. It comes at 3CP because of the weapon upgrade.
You have chance to use it after each engagement. If you don't do it it's your own fault.
It shows EVERYTHING on the map for couple of seconds. You'll be able to gain this Intel after next fight as there are always some wounded models on the ground. Again if you don't it's your own fault.
Lastely I can tell when my opponent is going without Radio intercept based on the map I can roughly say what's going to build seeing his initial units composition as well.
I didn't say G43 interrogation is bad, but they're honestly not in the same field as far as intel goes.
Radio intercept works at 00:00. It works while there's no engagement going on. It works if you lose an engagement / are driven back and don't get a chance to use interrogation. It works if a G43 model doesn't happen to be around (had to retreat, on a different front, whatever). It works all the time instead of periodically.
For that matter, G43 interrogate only reliably works when you have decisively won a skirmish. You're not going to rush your G43s out of cover just because one conscript model went down without risking them getting killed or otherwise taken out of the fight. It works if you catch a lone squad way out of position and get lucky that the model gets wounded instead of dying, but that's about it.
I play about 50/50 sov/ost and 1v1/2v2 and I can count the number of interrogations I've pulled off (a bit of hyperbole over so many games).
EDIT: To be clear, I think both are kind of lame abilities that remove a lot of reaction, shock, and planning. Just that radio intercept is much worse. G43 would be fine with just having the interrogation removed, it's a good enough upgrade by itself. |
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