So, I'm curious. When you play as Soviets or USF, and you encounter either the Elefant or the JT in 4v4, and somebody else in the team has fielded either a Brummbar or a King Tiger, how do you counter that?
Well, not to hijack this point, but if I'm Soviets, I've already long chosen a commander.
But the real point is that I don't counter it. My team has to counter it. I really don't think it is possible to identify balance issues alone through the lens of 3v3s and 4v4s. Team/faction synergy is a layer of balance that dominates how those game modes work.
Though some recent points you've made about the Elefant has me a little confused:
- I still believe it's Heavy-TD potency that makes Brummbar broken
You're all over the place in your reasoning, but you're reliably on about how you want the Elefant and JT nerfed. Don't fix what's not broken. Also, don't fix what you can't fix:
Due to the choice of late-game options for Soviets/USF, there is absolutely no amount of changes we can do to either faction to overcome this difficulty, unless we start adding bullshit.
Trying to overcome it through changing other factions isn't going to help either.
Saying that Elefant & Brummbar is OP, whereas dual-wielding Vet3 Riflemen is not, reeks of double standards.
If Elefant & Brummbar is OK, then we should have never banned dual-wielding LMGs. Instead, we should have added a 3rd slot to the Riflemen to pick up a 3rd LMG, but increase price-per-LMG to 90MU. That's precisely what it is like to face Elefant & Brummbar; and that's the fault of the Elefant.
The whole point is that there are only 2 VPs you need to defend, and the Elefant negates all action on one of them. Then, there 3 teammates left to defend the VP closest to the Elefant. GGWP.
If one guy picking the Elefant is forcing the entire enemy team to go try-hard to even have a chance to counter it, then something terribly wrong. This kills strategic diversity for the team that has to face OP Elefants day in/day out, and that will eventually kill the replayability of the game, when there's no OP stuff left to counter the wunderwaffe.
If you think this is OK for 1 guy picking a doctrine to force a doctrine-pick on 4 other guys, then there's something wrong with your reasoning. That's because when the Elefant is backed by 3 other teammates, the match is extremely uneven.
This is no different from Comet spam or Artillery cover bullshit or landmattress that have already been nerfed.
I don't understand how you can look at the Elefant and think "no different from Comet spam or Artillery cover or land mattress."
I also don't understand how one person choosing one of the two Elefant Doctrines forces the entire allied team of 1-3 factions to choose commanders. The only doctrinal units I can think of is the land mattress and calliope because they clear team weapons like crazy, which leaves the Elefant more or less screwed.
When an Elefant is backed by 3 other teammates, you're playing a 4v4. Port of Hamburg is pretty much the only 4v4 map where an Elefant can actually be effective because you can't flank on that bloody map. Lienne forest is another one, but it can only defend the fuel effectively. Steppes is a map where they can be effective and flanked just the same. I'm just saying: maps for 4v4s are terrible, for a balanced game or determining balance alike. And let's not forget faction design and look at what faction Elefants come from.
If you believe that the footprint of Elefant/Jagdtiger is justifiable, we should have never nerfed Landmattress/Artillery Cover; maybe just increase their price to make them unavailable for 1v1. Instead, we should have buffed ISU, Priest, B4, Tulips etc; that way there can be enough bullshit for each side to counter the bullshit on the other side.
Then, you would never see anybody pick any other doctrine, ever. Just the same bullshit day-in day-out; similar to how if you don't have a 1-2 call-in doctrines in your loadout in 1v1, you're a loser.
Seems highly speculative and dramatic.
Now, there's obviously a few remaining shitstains that will get have to get flushed down the toilet (e.g., Crocodile, Elefant, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, Calliope, and other things), and then the game can be interesting. We're just waiting for those to enter scope.
What you're saying is that there's nothing that's going to convince you otherwise that you want to nerf the Elefant how you see fit.
Huh. Mines usually get blown up by random explosives and are a bitch to plant in a place where a blob is gonna go. Also, USF, my main, doesn't get mines without doctrinal choice.
Yeah, it was worth a shot.
USF has been such an ugly duckling like OKW that it's hard to give meaningful advice considering the inherent flaws in the WFA factions.
Doctrinal mines are ridiculous, and them being mutually exclusive to things like rocket artillery isn't any better.
The KV-1 is a classic example of how nerfing things makes the game change completely over time.
I remember it used to be the best answer to OKW Volks blobs, then it got nerfed. Then Shrek Volks blobs became a huge problem, then OKW changed and Volks got StG.
It's still ok against Volks blobs, but not really much else.
This is why balance must always take into account overall design of the faction and how they matchup and mix with the other factions. It's got to be holistic.
Ok snarky know it all pro, how do you play against 20min+ volks blobs? Don't say rocket arty, because that's doctrinal, don't say mgs, because those can't even suppress vet5 volks before they get wiped frontally, and don't say tanks, because then they got their own panther or kt behind it, and don't say make your own blob because they'll get stuka'd and rifle blobs bleed way harder and take 120 muni a pop for double bars (also, bobbling is stupid and I try to avoid it.
Mines, (rocket) artillery.
The mines won't kill or wipe volks, but they can thin them out. Sturms are flimsy and expensive, so if you can remove them from the equation you're in a good situation.
Throw something that can handle infantry decently together with the Elefant and you have an uncounterable strategy for 4v4.
Without the Elefant both Soviets and British have the right (non-doc) late-game tools necessary to dislodge you (SU-85, Katyusha, any non-Centaur British tank).