What the announcement does not mention is that SEGA has made 240 employees redundant in other parts of its empire, most notably Creative Assembly. e.g. IGN Report
The industry has seen sluggish growth and rising costs. Against that background, and following approx 200 Relic redundancies last year, SEGA evidently felt that the only way forward with Relic was to sell it. My guess is that the External Investor could easily be MicroSoft, since it relies on Relic for AoE4. But I doubt if SEGA made much from this project bcs Relic subcontracted more and more of the AoE work.
An alternative External Investor to MS could be a US bank who are looking to flip Relic within, say, 12 months - this would follow the lines of what was proposed to avoid the THQ bankruptcy, but failed when shareholders forced an auction. If this were the case, it might suggest Relic had been acquired for a snip.
Either way, it looks as if the early release of the 2 free BGs etc is timed to coincide with this news. So @ Mrgame2, I don;t see COH3 stopping - rather, there will be more pressure to make it work, including presumably more saleable DLC.
After seeing nigo's post, you are likely spot on regarding DLCs. I think MS would have disclosed if they bought Relic. They need to make money fast, otherwise they're not interesting. I guess Relic released their update early to frame its "independence" to be a good thing, but I doubt it is.
Emona Capital is the winner
https://www.emonacapital.com/portfolio
Jesus. That company looks like the worst locust swarm possible.
Some gaming, some fintech stuff, some "rent an employee" company. I don't think that's the best environment for creative game development.
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I'd take a smaller independent studio creating niche games with clear vision any day over the standard AAA bullshit with publisher and whatnot.
Overall, this should be good news, but I have a personal aversion against large publishers. If Relic managed to clear out its trash working procedures and "uninspired" programmers/designers, they should be able to work more quickly now. If they didn't, then there is one more corrective missing that would put pressure on the studio to fix their problems, although we don't have any info on this ominous "external investor".
We'll have to wait and see. As players, nothing really changes, because we simply don't know how the behaviour of this investor will compare to SEGA. Might be worse, might be better, might be no big change at all. |
You really would need some advanced statistics math here, given how factions are not played equally, or facing equal match-ups.
We do have match-up specific stats as well, but elo distribution alone without normalizing faction pick difference won't do any good.
In my mind I was mostly thinking about 1v1 where at least the combinatory issue does not exist, although it technically shouldn't matter.
I am not sure how complicated the analysis would actually need to be. Maybe just looking at ELO distribution within teams should already give some info. Weak factions/team combinations would have a consistently lower ELO across the board. In case something is "easy to get into but hard to master", ELO range might be compressed more than other factions. This would not resolve factors like e.g. "double USF is good against double Wehr, but bad against double DAK". This could maybe be done by filtering for these special game setups (with all the caveats of Relic not directly introducing a ladder for that), although I yet don't know if it works out and how exactly it would look like. |
They don't stop playing = they spend half their playing time in the lobby waiting for a match.
The number of game played is the same for Allied and Axis.
Each game provides 1 winner and 1 loser.
Top Axis players can win all their game, that wouldn't change much because they play less games in average. Top Allied players (which are usually the same players) can lose all their games vs Top Axis players, the superior number of games available vs lower skilled players they going to win will make it up for the W/L Ratio, which will be in favor for axis, but not that much.
Now take in condition the human factor, top players avoiding themselves on ranking matches, the fact that they aren't numerous per definition and the high probabily they are unmatched in their respective time slot etc... Let's also add that if a faction is underpowered or harder to play, mostly only good players are going to play it on regular bases.
So now I'm going back to my initial statement that W/L ratio between faction isn't an indicator of balance on itself and even more at high level.
Now I get what you mean. Yes, I agree that the dampening effect sounds logical. Still, even though those top players with OP factions will find games less frequently, they will still find one eventually, even if they only play half of the games (which would mean 30 min queue times). If you look at the WR for e.g. the top 5% of each faction, you will still see that effect, because the best players of the UP faction will achieve ~50% WR, the best of the OP faction will achieve better.
The overall faction WR is a whole different issue though, because it WILL hide the fact that some factions might be strong with good micro, but difficult to learn, which will lead to top and bottom cancel each other out.
This means that a 50% WR is not a guarantee for a balanced faction. In addition, this also means that a strongly deviating WR from 50% for all games indicates a larger issue with the faction.
Which is where I think we're agreeing mostly. That's also what when I wrote "The question is rather if the smaller deviation in WR is true or statistical fluctuation".
Has anyone ever looked at ELO distribution? Median and some normalized average ELO should actually help in that case. In CoH2 we did not have access to that info. |
Not really. At top edge, you'll get 2, 3 or even 4 times faster games as Allied. So you'll probably keep losing vs same level players but you'll always fall back on lower level players and have more games vs them (since they are more numerous) making up for your initial lose.
So at top level, I'd say winrate is even less relevant to check as a metric once the meta is settled. As Allied you have access to more games so statistically more win than Axis.
Or said otherwise the game tend to balance itself as quantity vs quality while the only metric we, as players, care about is quality.
But those Axis players at the top edge don't stop playing just because some equally skilled Allied player has downranked. They also keep playing - and winning - if their faction is OP, therefore creating a >50% win rate.
Example: Assume we're looking at a player using a weak faction that is currently being rated correctly for his skill.
1. Mid-ELO: You just lose ELO until you play against less skilled players using a stronger faction, which overall leads to similar strength -> =50% WR
2. Low-ELO: You lose ELO. However, there is no one with similar ELO to get matched with, therefore you get matched with the lowest possible ELOs on the opponent's factions. Since those factions are stronger, you will lose more often than win -> <50% WR for the weaker faction
3. High-ELO. You just lose ELO until you play against less skilled players using a stronger faction, which overall leads to similar strength -> =50% WR for YOURSELF. The opponents which play the strong faction now have no one at their ELO to get properly matched with, so they get matched with the highest possible ELOs on the other faction. Since their owm factions are stronger, they will win more often than lose -> >50% WR for the stronger faction.
The search times for Allies are not longer because of ELO issues, but because there are apparently more Axis in queue that will never find an opponent. |
Winrate has nothing to do with balance since matchmaking can always compensate the lack of balance with ELO.
Not that I'm saying the balance is off in 2vs2 but the argument isn't valid.
Not at the edges of the ELO ranking, where there are no other players to match against. The question is rather if the smaller deviation in WR is true or statistical fluctuation. Also, the question is which part of the game you're comparing. If the game has one strong meta build, you're not comparing the overall faction, but just the capability to replicate that build. Which is especially true at higher ELO. Low ELO is much more diverse in play. |
Long games are definitely possible even with new tickrate, as long as the match is actually balanced. I see it all the time. If a match lasts 20min, it means one side just played worse (or got cheesed by OP strats idk)
Click on the image and you can see the timer
They are possible, but much, much rarer.
Correct me if I am wrong, but logically the faster tick rate just makes comebacks harder and heavily punishes misplays once your down to let's say 50ish VPs. The game times overall are lower in CoH3 (which could also be a balance issue) and the casted games of the pro scene are shorter as well. The videos I clicked through often had games of 20-25 minutes, only a minority goes significantly longer.
This doesn't have to be bad by default, it's just the way it is - quicker and more plannable games at the price of snowballing and reduced comebacks. |
I think something in between current coh3 speed and coh2 speed would be ideal
Since the last major patch of coh3, 81% of 1v1s ended before 30 mins. I dont think theres anything necesarily wrong with that, in coh2 from the same date it was 71% which isnt THAT different
2v2 in the same time span is 75% for coh3 and 66% for coh2. Again not rly a big deal, but I think they could stand to be a little slower
Coh3 feels like it snowballs more quickly than coh2 in general and i dont think its always a stomp when thats the case
I think the faster tick rate might be a good option for more casual play if the search time between games is short enough. I have often not played CoH2 just because I did not know if I sign up for a 30 min match or the full hour. But, on the other hand, those 1 hour slogs were often the best games I had, because they were so balanced that they went that far and there were so many moments and desperate attempts from both sides to decide the game. These games don't seem to happen much in CoH3.
AE's casts of "pro level play" lasted 30-50 min in CoH2, now it is more like 20-30 and the whole Best of 5 series is done what would previously have been 2 videos. I just don't find it pleasant to watch. I want to see a potential comeback which don't seem all that possible in CoH3.
Adjusting the game time would be easy. Just add another 100 VP to the clock. Or make some shift between tick rate and VPs to give a more pleasantly looking 300 or 500 VP counter. Even smaller changes such as VPs not counting towards the win as soon as they are contested (although this needs more testing) could help. |
I'll lock this due to lack of effort in creating a proper discussion base. |
I can only tell from watching casts.
The last patch made the game look a lot better. Lighting is quite nice overall, just some sand in bright light seems to be too bright for me, otherwise it looks pretty good overall. 90% of textures, terrain deformation and object damage looks gorgeous.
Animations are my biggest grudge. It feels like they had one very talented, and one very incapable person working on them. Some look top notch. Others looks like they were made by the executives 12 year old son because according to the boss "he's pretty good with that animation program". The arty strike of the new officer is hilariously horrible.
I guess they will fix the instant acceleration. Visually as an observer, it's actually not that obvious apart from some instances were the vehicles seem to bounce. Relic must know how wrong and goofy that looks. They also don't implement an already proven system just to toss it overboard. I guess they used this at the moment to cover some bugs and glitches while they try to fix those. |