I usually try to let discussions go ahead for a bit before drawing the conclusions that I include in the summary, and not overwelm the team with too many big posts. I'll wait for next week's patch and adjust my summary accordingly. If those suggestions are still relevant by then, I will include them.
Sounds reasonable. |
I would certainly like that. Performance brought down to Elefant levels (but mobility up a bit). Price can be a bit higher due to access to abilities and higher armor. Abilities could be looked at, because they don't work properly. And remove the engine upgrade, as it already costs an insane 720MP and 280FU.
If someone from the team could let us know if giving a Jagdtiger to Overwatch would be considered an option, we could start to gather feedback/suggestions for a minor overhaul for the unit. I'm glad to see the community seems to like the idea.
Can only support you on this. What we need in the current state of the patch is direction.
We can give us much feedback as we want if the mod team doesnt like the ideas its useless.
I think it would be a smart move of the mod team to manage this like in the past weeks when discussions went in circles. Andy gave us some options to discuss the 223 and explained that Panzerfüssies would not come to Elite Armor. So the direction was clear.
Btw, Sander, it would be cool if you could post again your summary of "overwatch" / "Elite Armor" and update it with Starks idea of giving JAegers 2&Schreck upgrade. 223 should provide extra ressources for teammebers too.
After that we should ask the mod team what they think about the ideas.
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I get the sense that if they think putting panzerfuss into Overwatch was too radical an idea, the JT definitely won't be considered.
It's a good idea though, it could use an overhaul and fits the commander theme. Right now it's just a liability to use in competitive matches, I'd be happy if it were given the same stats/price as an Elephant really.
+1
JT should come 1 CP earlier and cost as much as the elephant. I really dont see no reason what justifies more CP/ressources.
Btw: If the mod teams wants to be conservative about changes -fine- you dont have to like this direction but at least its a direction. What i can not understand is why putting JT to "overwatch" is considered to radical when Soviets get KV-2 to "urban defense" and Brits get the buffed crocodile to "tactical support". |
because jt is cancer in teamgames so no thx
Are you serious? The JT is super expensive, comes even later than the elefant and is barely seen in teamgames anymore. Besides that the unit can't even 2 shot mediums anymore.
How can be the JT considered as "cancer"??? |
If Sturmtiger is not to be shuffled around, I would definitely opt for giving Overwatch the Jagdtiger. It really fits the doctrine and it would synergise well with the early warning flares and Jaegers. Sector artillery would - as Katitof mentioned - put too much munition strain on the doctrine that already has the Goliaths and For the Fatherland. It also gives players who want the Jagdtiger an option for a doctrine other than the useless-besides-PF-and-JT-Breakthrough.
Regarding Sanders proposal to give Overwatch the JT too:
- Wehrmacht has 2 Ele docs and 5 Tiger docs (icl. Tiger Ace)
- Soviets have 2 SU-15s docs, 2 IS-2 docs + 2 KV-2 docs (incl. new Urban Defense), + several docs providing KV-1 / T-34/85
- Brits will have 3 Croc docs (incl. new Tactical support)
WHY SHOULD OKW DOESN'T HAVE 2 DOCS WITH THE JT?
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If Sturmtiger is not to be shuffled around, I would definitely opt for giving Overwatch the Jagdtiger. It really fits the doctrine and it would synergise well with the early warning flares and Jaegers. Sector artillery would - as Katitof mentioned - put too much munition strain on the doctrine that already has the Goliaths and For the Fatherland. It also gives players who want the Jagdtiger an option for a doctrine other than the useless-besides-PF-and-JT-Breakthrough.
+1 |
Why you don't like the new sturmtiger?
Yes maybe something like sector artillery.
As Sander said: We like the changes of the Sturmtiger (and in Elite Armor in generel) but feel the unit would be better fit to "overwatch" replacing the leFh. If you dont want to move the Sturmtiger, fine, but I personally don't think that sector arty is enough to make "overwatch" doctrine worthwhile.
Would the mod team consider ideas like giving Sturms the option to lay tellers / build demos (merged with goliath to "demolitian experts" ability) or - as Stark suggested- giving Jaegers upgrade option for 2 Schrecks?
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Here's an updated overview of all my feedback on the OKW commanders.
Partly based on the usage in the tourney so far.
Once again I'd like to thank the team for a great job so far and for the community approach.
Elite Armor
General consensus: good commander overal. Fixes to the abilities have come a long way and the addition of the 221/223 is very interesting. Still I think it needs some more slight adjustments to become a truly viable commander.
[0 CP] 221 / 223
- I think the cost should be slightly adjusted to 200MP/20FU, in comparison to OST's 222 (200MP/30FU). 223 upgrade can be increased to 120MP/10FU to keep total cost for the mobile cache the same.
- Partly based on its limited use during the tourney, I think it currently comes onto the field a bit late for what it can do (as 221). I would propose to test it with the requirement moved down to having an SWS truck built, rather than an HQ set up. This should put its deployment time down by 2-3 minutes and give it a bit of shock value. Makes players choose between teching or fighting power.
- The healing is nice but the stack of 3x crates makes it awkward to use on the front lines (you rarely need more than one crate). It would be much more practical if it drops one crate at a time or can select a squad for healing (like OST's medkits). 15-20MU per crate/heal.
- The ability to engage aircraft would be nice. Could be considered for vet4 to replace the durability bonus that isn't incredibly useful.
[4 CP] Emergency Repairs
- This ability is in a really good spot right now. Low cost and quite a significant yield. Very useful to get vehicles back into battles a bit faster.
[5 CP] Panzer Commander
- Good overhaul, ability is really useful now and definitely worth the trade with pintle mount.
[7 CP] HEAT Shells
- Great ability, good as it is.
[11 CP] Sturmtiger
- Decrease range on hull MG so it doesn't fire at max range and reveals the Sturmtigers position (spoiling the element of surprise) before it can fire the rocket. Or add a 'hold fire' option to it.
- Please consider removing light cover collision from the rocket. This unit is already very micro heavy and clumsy to use, and after going through all the trouble of manually reloading and planning the next attack it's very annoying when the rocket detonates prematurely just because there was a small bush or fence in the way. If this isn't possible, decrease the random scatter a bit so avoiding cover with the shot is actually in the player's control.
- Alternatively, move Sturmtiger to Overwatch (or Breakthrough preferably) and replace 5th slot with a Tiger I. This would give OKW a valuable heavy alternative to the King Tiger that can be more agressive and mobile. An OKW Tiger I "Ausf.E" would suit the doctrine much better than the Sturmtiger, thematically. Moving the heavy call-ins around would also benefit Overwatch a lot (see below).
Overwatch
General consensus: this doctrine still has an identity crisis. It's kinda all over the place and in its current state I don't see it used much, apart from the Goliath memes. Needs some radical changes still I think.
[0 CP] Early Warning and Forward Receivers
- Good thing to have merged these, flares give nice vision. Doesn't need any changes.
[0 CP] Goliath
- High risk high reward unit, doesn't need any changes I think. Perhaps slightly decrease detectability range by minesweepers.
- Others pointed out that Goliaths themselves are a bit lackluster to take up an ability slot by themselves. Proposals have been to expand slot into 'heavy demolitions' which gives Sturmpioneers access to some extra tools as well. Teller mines or demos perhaps.
[2 CP] Jaeger Light Infantry (JLI)
- Initial changes to combat performance were good.
- Main problem for JLI is that they are better mainline infantry rather than elites. This makes it difficult/awkward to fit them into build orders. This seems to be backed up by their very limited use in the tourney.
- Solution: move requirement down to either 0CP with cooldown or 1CP. This should give players the opportunity to replace the standard 3rd or 4th Volksgrenadier with JLI and give them a place in the opening build order.
- Obviously, if moved down to 0-1CP, some abilities would have to be adjusted. Scoped Gew43 could become an upgrade. Camouflage might need to be moved back to vet1.
[0 CP] For the Fatherland
- Can't say much about this ability, seems to be fine for what it does.
[0 CP] LeFH 18
- LeFH 18 is an odd adition to the doctrine. It doesn't make it particularily attractive to choose. If one wants LeFH 18, Defensive Doctrine is generally the better choice.
- Its new vet5 ability "aimed shot" is practically useless. Needs to be replaced by something else. I have no idea frankly.
- Personally, I would like to see the 5th slot filled by the Sturmtiger coming over from Elite Armor. Or (if within scope) even better: Jagdtiger to Overwatch and Sturmtiger to Breakthrough.
- Moving Sturmtiger or Jagdtiger to Overwatch would give the doctrine the significant boost it needs with a high power unit at the end. Would synergise well with JLI and Early Warning for sight. Especially the Jagdtiger would really fit the theme of the doctrine.
Sander:THX A LOT FOR THIS GREAT POST!
Stark: THX for your feedback about 223. I like a lot the idea of giving the Jaegers the 2& schreck upgrade - together with stealth they could become a really nice unit! It would also solve OKWs AT problem without moving Pzgrens to OKW.
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Does anyone know when can we expect these reworks to hit the live servers?
The discussion is going nowhere. It is best to hit live and see how it goes from where, like always.
The discussion was good and productive until some well known guy hijacked this thread and the usual AXIS /ALlies talk began. Discussions are not pointless, the mod team implemented a lot of the ideas of the community. But i agree - in the not so near future we should know what the final version of the revamp commanders should look like.
It would be good if the mod team would give us some insight about their thoughts. I think it was very good how they managed the question regarding the 223. |
Elite Armor was improved greatly.
HEAT was always a great ability, ST is still a very potent unit, 221 is interesting addition giving another light option with utility for early game, worst thing about the doctrine, tank commander barrage was buffed(delay made it completely useless prior to that) and emergency repairs got a massive buff as well.
You however seem to be completely missing the point of commander.
Its -NOT- supposed to give you super tank. Its supposed to make your armor less dependent of your infantry and increase their potency, which it does.
I'm not going to talk about overwatch, because I never played with it a lot, its goliath only for me from that doc.
Well, we can agree that Elite armor was improved a lot and i acknowledged this in almost every post regarding this doctrine. So no need for dispute here. But i certainly disagree with you about the "point of the commander". If ELITE ARMOR DOESNT DESERVE AN ELITE HEAVY CALL-IN which doctrine does?
Regarding "Overwatch":
The goliath is never used in team games. I tried to watch as much games in the CR tourney as possible but the unit was not build in 1 game. Its like Sander said: "Overwatch" needs drastic
changes. |