What? They are super useful in any situation because they deny your opponent cover which is usually enough to decide any somewhat balanced infantry engagement. i.e. volks battle it out with brit infantry sections who are behind green/yellow cover. You throw a nade to the cover and they are forced to move and lose since they dont have cover anymore.
Useful, yes, but other factions' grenades accomplish this as well as potentially crippling entire squads.
I think their price is just about right.
Kidding? Satchel != bundled grenade, yet both are 45 muni.
I dont really understand what you are trying to say. The pre-GCS patch Maxim was amazing because of fast set-up time and very good surpression. That allowed Maxims to be offensive and act almost like mainline infantry. Vickers are limited to defensive tasks. After GCS patch Maxims turned to shit because of bad surpression, slow set-up and increased reinforcment costs. These changes made Maxims basically useless. PLus the fact that Maxims are still 260MP and locked behind T2 makes them basically a joke compared to any other MG. I would go as far as saying that the Maxim went from best to worst MG within one patch.
It needs a major buff. Current Maxims are useless. Take infantry run straight at it throw nade and Maxim is forced to retreat.
Only when spammed. Their narrow line of fire made them easily flanked. I never had a problem with the Maxim... though, perhaps others did.
And if you think it's so easy to charge straight at a Maxim, why don't you try it? (clue: it's not) |
Often wipe multiple squads with satchels? I cant remember ever having wiped more than one squad with satchels in about 1100h COH2. You need to be sloppy with your micro in order to loose infantry to satchels. MG´s and AT-guns are a bit more tricky but even them should not get wiped by satchels if you have a decent level of micro.
On the other hand Volks incendiary grenades are very good because they deny garrions/cover and have no fuse timer. They are also very good vs. mg´s and at-guns. They are everything but weak.
Satchels vs tanks and light vehicles also require your opponent to have bad micro. A well microed tank/vehicle is never going to get satcheld unless it has engine crit.
Incendiary grenades have their uses, but they seem slightly overpriced and have virtually no use against infantry who are not garrisoned.
Ok, it's rare that multiple squads are wiped, but they do have the potential to do so, and you will often see multiple squads crippled by a lucky satchel. Satchels, as someone else here has pointed out, are also very versatile, being useful against vehicles and structures also. I'm just saying they should be increased, to, say, 50-60 munitions?
- Honored Penal buff, before the patch they were one of the worst infantry units (only the flamethrower was good)
- conscripts always sucked
- undeserved Maxim nerf
Players pushed to spam the Penal, because they have no other alternative. I'm really surprised: everyone is spamming, but everyone are crying about what spam is bad. This game is built on spam, and combined arms operations require more skill and less profit.
Couldn't agree more. When I read the patch notes and saw the Maxim nerf, I was confused, 'cos from my perspective as an Axis main, the Maxim was already pretty crappy. It's only buff was an increasing of the field of fire... which actually, was the Maxim's main weakness imo. Take the Vickers, for example... near impossible to avoid its cone of fire unless you do an uberflank and come up from behind.
Luchs range > penals PTRS range
If you kite penals with your luch, they will never ever damage you. And even if you get too close, and the actually start aiming, just quickly reverse back. PTRS aiming time is so long, that you should be able to evade them, even if they start targeting you 
Oh, please. An interesting suggestion, but kiting is only really effective against casemate armour if you are circling it. I presume what you mean is reversing such that you are always on the edge of the Luchs' range, but outside the Penals' range. The problem with that, is that it's easy enough to just move the Penals back a little, inside the range of say a Zis gun. Early armour is penned easily and died hard to Zis guns, as would be expected. I can't see this tactic working against any competent player.
My opinion on the optimal solution to the Penal Problem
It seems to be that the best solution would be to moderately nerf Penals' accuracy, while also improving their vet buffs (to the point where they can actually become quite a bit better than fresh Penals in the current patch). Conscripts could simultaneously be buffed, though I think the best way to do this would be to reduce their cost subtly, to reflect that they are predominately an early-game unit (though perhaps they could be given vet buffs which bring them closer to Penals, so they're not a waste of space if they survive to the late-game).
The Maxim could perhaps use a slight buff, but not too much, since it's still a capable MG in the current patch.
This solution would enable Penals to retain some utility early game, and attain potency late game, without making SU players feel like the only solution is Penal spamming. It would also actually bring Penals in-line with the rest of the infantry in this game, 'cos sorry to say it, but in their current state they are overpowered. |
hi 
Indeed, hi.
there are a lot of counter to beat easily penals ( MG per exemple)
Since the penal have been heavily nerfed, i believe even their sprint ability got removed so you can pin them down easily.
When I used to play Ostheer (I probably have around 150 hours as OST) I would typically suppress blobs with an MG42 and shred them with double or even triple Panzerwerthers to ensure a wipe. However, you may have noticed that OKW have no decent MG. The MG34 is impotent and takes a good while to suppress, and thus the only MG-equivalent OKW have are flaks. Specifically, the Flak HQ and the mobile flak halftrack (the Flak 38 does surprisingly little to suppress, almost as bad as the MG34).
You tried to compare penals with some okw (doctrinal & undoctrinal) units, and found that penal beat volksgrenadier ...
well, they are not the same price
penals = 6*28 Mp = 180 MP
Volks = 5*25 MP = 125 MP
So basically, penals should perform for their price 31% better than volks.
This said, penals don't have Flame grenadies / Panzerfaust / STG44 upgrade and infiltration nades.
There is not a problem with penals, only with your lack of knowledge.
You seem to have skimmed over the rest of my post, but allow me to clarify: I compared units not only based on who beats who, but also on cost-effectiveness. Penals cost 300 MP, Volks cost 250 MP. At close and mid range, 5 squads of Penals (1500 MP) beat 6 squads of Volks (also 1500 MP) by a fair margin, every time. At long range, the 6 Volks lost most of the time but did barely managed to pull off a win once.
The conclusion is that Volks are not a cost-effective counter to Penals and only stand a chance if by some miracle you manage to only engage the Penals at long-range... which is going to be extremely hard, considering OKW has no viable early-game MG, and you cannot fire while running backwards.
Edit: I was unable to reproduce the 6 Volks v 5 Penal long-range victory, must've just been a fluke. In which case, Penals are more cost-effective at all ranges.
Edit2: Reading over your post a second time, you seem to have used the reinforce cost to evaluate value. I noticed that the reinforce cost for Volks is 25 MP (10% of their build cost), while the reinforce for Penals is only a mere 28 MP (9.3% of their build cost). This actually proves my point further.
Edit3: Penals also have 45-muni satchels which can often wipe multiple squads. Volks have weak 30-muni incendiary grenades which are only useful against static targets such as MGs. |
So we just have to acknowledge the fact that penals are a ´problem´, but we can´t offer any counters to said problem? What is the point of this thread then?
A lot of people provide viable solutions, yet they are put aside because: "let's not get into the counter to counter to counter play!"
Wut?
You misunderstand. The point is you are encouraged to suggest counters to Penals, since those are the units being dicussed in this thread. The 'let's not get into the counter to the counter to the counter' is to try and protect the thread against derailing (Katyusha versus Panzerwerther anyone?). The assumption is that everything has a counter (Stuka zu Fuß is a decent counter to Penals (though not available early-game, when Penals rule the map), and is obviously vulnerable to counter-arty and especially to tank rushes... but we're not here to discuss the Stuka and its counters), and we're here to discuss Penals not other units. |
Outlining an ideal situation is not a good argument to say that penals are OP.
My point about the Obers was that you must properly factor in the available and reasonable counters to a unit before you cry OP. The luch is a very good counter, mg's are a very good counter. A Kubel + sturms can effectively outfight anything in the first few mins.
Obersoldaten are late-game anti-infantry infantry. Late-game is less about unit cost, and more about usefulness : popcap ratio. In fact, by the late game Penals have become obsolete once the SU armour rolls out and OST/OKW rocket arty has also, so Obersoldaten are not even relevant. I only included them for the sake of comparison. Penals dominate early-game, and they often dominate early-game so hard that there isn't much of a late-game left.
The OST MG-42 is an OK counter, provided you manage to keep it alive. You cannot PUSH with an MG-42, thus you cannot take out mortars which are pummeling your MG-42, since those mortars are being guarded by a Penal horde in all probability... which will wipe the floor with almost any infantry you send towards them. You could try and send a 222 through the Penal horde to take care of the mortars, but in all probability it'll start raining cheap-as-chips satchel charges, or they'll be a Zis gun waiting. This takes us back to the 'counter-to-the-counter', which would be to mortar their Zis gun, but then they can mortar your mortar and have a horde of Penals or perhaps a CE squad to recrew any decrewed weapons.
The OKW MG-34 is NOT a counter, it is a pile of unusable scrap metal. Likewise, the Luchs is impotent and does very little damage. |
So, lets think about this: in order to fight the luchs you need to get 2 penal squads (600 MP), upgrade them to having 4 PTRS's (100 muni or something?) and then have the luch sit in-front of your units not moving, all the while your 600 manpower and 100 muni worth of squads is now crap at fighting over infantry.
Taking it further, in reality the luch will be moving, probably away from the penals, meaning the penals wont be able to get many shots off. You lose MP, the luchs get repaired for free.
I believe you missed the point of me mentioning Obers.
I take your point. Realistically, there are many cheap and easily available counters to the Luchs also, that are not Penals. Take the oft-spammed Guard Rifle Infantry with PTRS rifles, or even a single Zis gun. But the point still stands. It doesn't matter that there are counters to the Luchs, because the Luchs is balanced. In fact, the Luchs is pretty sucky and only stands a chance against enemies who have no potential to deal damage to it (which, as it happens, is no troop... (actually, idk if the shock troops have any AT capability) watch the Luchs reverse away frantically from a single Conscript squad).
Let's consider one Penal squad and two Conscripts. Conscripts Oohrah up to the Luchs as it tries to reverse and bugger out its engine with two anti-tank grenades (25 muni each) as well as dealing considerable damage. Penals can now outrun the Luchs, and are able to slap a 45 muni satchel on it, destroying it. That's a mere 95 muni to destroy a 265 MP and 60 fuel vehicle. Meanwhile, the Conscripts/Penals are unlucky if they have lost a single model. That is how bad the Luchs is. Test it, be my guest. I did (with a friend, to rule out AI derp).
And if I missed the point of you mentioning Obers, then please clarify. |
Do you guys actually play the game or just complain about it? Since when did 2 PTRS's (or 4 or even 6) hard counter luchs/ostwind?
and no Penals don't counter Obers, and Obers are what 400 mp? 100 more than penals? Not exactly 'ridiculously' more expensive than penals.
Go into the game and test it, then. Two Penal squads each with a single PTRS-41, versus a single Luchs. Luchs loses, almost always.
It's difficult to believe, but you are completely missing the point regarding Ober. Ober are 400 MP... thus, for the same cost, you can either have 4 Penal squads or 3 Ober squads. The 4 Penal squads wipe the floor with the 3 Ober squads. Penals are thus much more cost-effective, and do not require a 200 MP + 120 fuel building. |
20 seconds means the difference between controling and losing the key house
If you can't force the enemy out of the 'key house' (which you easily can, with a single mortar defended by your Penal hordes and maybe even a Maxim if you're feeling adventurous), then just play elsewhere. Big maps. |
If you dont want to talk about what the Penals face then you have no basis from which to call them OP or UP. If Penals faced LMG Obers from 2 minutes into the game, you would call the Penals UP.
The luchs argument is particularly powerful as its the hard counter to all non-AT infantry, and can come very quickly.
Of course the Penals would seem UP if they faced LMG Obers from 2 mins in. The LMG Obers are ridiculously more expensive, and are late-game infantry for when popcap matters more than cost-effectiveness.
Even if you could get Obers from the start, though, the Penals still win in cost-effectiveness and would still win overall (as I stated, Penal squads wipes the floor with 3 Ober squads).
And I am happy to discuss what the Penals face, and potential counters to the Penals. That is where the Luchs comes in, indeed, and the Luchs fails miserably. The reason I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of the counter to the counter (the counter to the Luchs for example) is that we'll get derailed and end up discussing, for example, how two T34/76s (80 fuel each) are simultaneously cheaper and superior to an OST/OKW Panther (175 fuel, or 200 fuel for OKW) and are not only able to easily flank and destroy a Panther even while reversing, but are also potent versus infantry.
That's not to say that there is not a counter to the counter, there almost always is one, it's that it's not relevant.
I agree with MarioSilver here.
EDIT: My point is, it's important to acknowledge that there is a counter to every and any proposed counter (sometimes the Penals themselves are a viable counter to the proposed counter), I just don't feel it necessary to go into great length about the details of the counter to the counter, and then the counter to that counter, and so on. |
have you tried going for a fast luchs? That is pretty much the way you counter everything as OKW.
Eh, two Penal squads or Guard Rifles with PTRS rifles can easily defeat a Luchs (and that's assuming they are just stood in the open and not even behind cover). Or just a single SU-76, or a well-micro'd T-70. Or even a single Zis gun.
I will however concede that a Luchs is much more accessible than a SU-76 as you can see - unit MP, unit fuel (+structure MP +structure fuel)
SU-76M - 280 MP, 75 fuel (+400 MP +95 fuel)
Pzkpfw II Luchs - 265 MP, 60 fuel (+200 MP +50 fuel)
...damnit. I stated above I didn't want to get into the counter-to-the-counter, 'cos there are plenty of ways to kill a Luchs, using even a mere two PTRS-41 rifles against an 'anti-infantry' tank, or just mines/demos. And anyway, the Luchs is too impotent to be considered a true counter. |
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