I was talking about the Ostheer Panther, since that's what this thread is about.
Ostheer tanks are in general just pathetic. ONE active ability, and it's best used for escaping rather than attacking. Meanwhile, Allied armor has a whole arsenal of actives.
And as any experienced player of any multiplayer game knows, active abilities usable in a clutch to finish off enemies are 10x more potent than any kind of stat buffs or the like.
Not that panzers have better stats than Allied tanks either. Penetrated from the front, sides, angles, everywhere all day long.
Axis players, and Ostheer players in particular, may as well not even bother with tanks. Who needs a tin can that just acts as fodder, then takes munitions to retreat without dying, then repeats the whole process? |
I agree with the sentiments that they should just get a copypasta of the OKW Panther. OKW Panther definitely feels like a "premier medium tank"
Can't say I agree. The only reason I even bother with an OKW Panther is when I happen to have the resources, and can't bring out anything better.
Panthers in general are WOEFULLY inadequate.
Combine this with the fact that Allied tanks get a TON of active offensive abilities, while Axis tanks get nothing but Blitz, and Panthers are just ridiculously weak and impotent by comparison to the Allied armor arsenal, especially late game. |
As per the description of this forum section, "Mortars OP" is the stereotype of many threads here.
But what about the blatant lack of resource balance between the Allied factions and the Axis factions?
I present Exhibit A:
https://www.coh2.org/replay/62913/according-to-relic-three-equals-one-and-five-equals-two
Soviet Player:
- Floating 400+ munitions and still winning fights against a player who uses all available munitions for weapon upgrades & grenades & mines
- Gaining more fuel than an opponent despite holding fuel points less and having NO fuel caches
- Having enough manpower to reinforce despite losing plenty of models by keeping units always out of cover
- Not reinforcing infantry but being under NO THREAT of unit wipes due to the garbage design of Axis infantry weapons (50% chance or whatever it is of simply not doing any damage)
- Losing NO models at all via Zerg tactics: running directly into enemy fire through open ground while enemy units are in cover
- Winning engagements despite having retreated and never repaired a vehicle, allowing it to sit in base for ages doing nothing
- Building a tank HQ and still having enough fuel for THREE tanks before the enemy has enough for ONE panzer
- Walking THREE infantry squads blobbed together with tons of models each over a mine in a narrow bottleneck and only losing TWO MODELS FROM ONE SQUAD
And as if that weren't enough, at about 4/5 of the way into the match, a T-34/76 rolls up and fires a long range shot at Sturmpioneers before stopping... and kills a model, while not a single German tank can wipe any models unless it's standing still 5 feet from them and has time to fire at least twice.
Also, a panzer & two AT guns take out TWO TANKS and wound a third, but don't even gain ONE STAR OF VERERANCY.
Summary:
- I had to take out FIVE enemy tanks while only having ONE.
- The supposed "anti-infantry" units used by the opponent are more effective against armor than any other anti-tank unit in the game due to high model count, anti-tank grenades that take 1/3 of a tank's health, and overall unit resilience.
- Were the opposing player not a total brain dead imbecile, I wouldn't have been able to take even a single point on the map due to how blatantly broken Allied resource income and units are.
Conclusion: Allied players can dominate a match entirely while having no tactical or strategic skill whatsoever, while Axis players have to play flawlessly, like some kind of tactical masterminds (which I'm not, but that just underscores the discrepancy between skill requirements for Allied and Axis players), and still get punished for it.
P.S. Before anyone starts cherry picking how I could have done things differently, know that I intentionally avoid using machine guns to demonstrate this blatant garbage game design. My baseline infantry units should be just as effective as ANY opposing faction's infantry units. At NO point should I be FORCED to use specific units, so long as I use proper tactics, such as putting units in cover, proper positioning, and so forth. Yet Allies blatantly overpower Axis units in this regard, whose infantry can rush directly into enemy fire with no negative consequences, and who benefit from absurd amounts of resources that they don't even have to use to stand toe-to-toe with Axis forces. If that isn't a blatant lack of balance, I don't know what is. |
Soviet Player:
- Floating 400+ munitions and still winning fights against a player who uses all available munitions for weapon upgrades & grenades & mines
- Gaining more fuel than an opponent despite holding fuel points less and having NO fuel caches
- Having enough manpower to reinforce despite losing plenty of models by keeping units always out of cover
- Not reinforcing infantry but being under NO THREAT of unit wipes due to the garbage design of Axis infantry weapons (50% chance or whatever it is of simply not doing any damage)
- Losing NO models at all via Zerg tactics: running directly into enemy fire through open ground while enemy units are in cover
- Winning engagements despite having retreated and never repaired a vehicle, allowing it to sit in base for ages doing nothing
- Building a tank HQ and still having enough fuel for THREE tanks before the enemy has enough for ONE panzer
- Walking THREE infantry squads blobbed together with tons of models each over a mine in a narrow bottleneck and only losing TWO MODELS FROM ONE SQUAD
And as if that weren't enough, at about 4/5 of the way into the match, a T-34/76 rolls up and fires a long range shot at Sturmpioneers before stopping... and kills a model, while not a single German tank can wipe any models unless it's standing still 5 feet from them and has time to fire at least twice.
Also, a panzer & two AT guns take out TWO TANKS and wound a third, but don't even gain ONE STAR OF VERERANCY.
Summary:
- I had to take out FIVE enemy tanks while only having ONE.
- The supposed "anti-infantry" units used by the opponent are more effective against armor than any other anti-tank unit in the game due to high model count, anti-tank grenades that take 1/3 of a tank's health, and overall unit resilience.
- Were the opposing player not a total brain dead imbecile, I wouldn't have been able to take even a single point on the map due to how blatantly broken Allied resource income and units are.
Conclusion: Allied players can dominate a match entirely while having no tactical or strategic skill whatsoever, while Axis players have to play flawlessly, like some kind of tactical masterminds (which I'm not, but that just underscores the discrepancy between skill requirements for Allied and Axis players), and still get punished for it. |
It's the logic that follows Brits since their release. Churchill too stronk? Nerf it! People use Comet now? Nerf it! Cromwell too popular? Nerf it! Firefly and Crocodile still useable? Nerf it! Arty cover OP? Nerf it! Still OP? Nerf it!
...that's how balancing works. Sure, competent devs wouldn't allow everything to be broken to start with, but better late than never.
Of course, there's STILL the whole issue of nerfing things based on how they perform against the original two factions in the game, Ostheer & Soviets, which simply don't belong in the same game as the USF and OKW. Then the Brits came along, and the devs tried to somehow make sure that they neither blatantly overpower the Eastern Front factions nor blatantly lose to Western Front factions.
CoH2 is a mismanaged mess of a game. |
dude you have to be a fucking idiot to not understand why a stug doesn't kill inf and why a t34 does. storm elite go play some other game.
Because a Panzer IV is good against infantry? Oh, wait. Not a single Axis tank except the Tiger does anything to infantry, at all, ever.
Allies play Easy Mode. Armored vehicles early game that can drive around the entire map and allow the Allied player to take the whole map for several minutes. Universal tanks that require no thought or strategy whatsoever due to all having turrets and all being equally viable against infantry and armor. Enough munitions to both upgrade infantry AND lay mines AND build entrenchments (they don't even cost munitions, do they?), etc. etc. etc.
Axis has the worst of absolutely everything, and the Panther doesn't even matter when Axis infantry units STILL bunch up and get instawiped ALL THE TIME. Good luck sending in a Panther when you have one infantry unit left. |
This and so many other problems would be solved by simply making all engineer units actually combat viable... but for some reason, that's verboten. |
Maybe at higher rating, players actually create varied armies.
Below 1000 though, it's just tank spam.
There's no way to build the Schwerer HQ when the enemy is pushing out nothing but tanks as soon as they can get them.
I end up with like four Pumas and two AT guns, which of course obliterates the enemy tanks, but by comparison, going Schwerer HQ is suicide, since by the time you can bring out even one tank from there, the opponent will have fielded at the very least two tanks, which invalidates AT guns completely (except when used to support your own armor). |
Same aply for the sturmpioneers, you can literally stay into green cover and see them running to you without droping a model . And obersoldaten of course that run into the front of a mg and they kill the mg before getting supressed . That also applies to vet gren lmg blobs and vet 5 volks
Well, that's partially because Western Front factions are literally from another game.
Eastern Front factions can't compete with Western Front factions. They don't belong in the same game.
However, veterancy isn't an argument. Volksgrenadiers can't do anything at low veterancy at all against anyone who is aggressively pushing. They deal no damage.
Meanwhile, EVERY USF unit runs into enemy fire without taking damage, gets into the same cover as the enemy, and wins the engagement. Every single one.
Regardless, the point is that it should never be possible, for any units, of any faction.
Of course, Relic couldn't care less. They're of the opinion that their game is a golden egg, flawless and precious in every way. |
At least in 1vs1.
And I don't mean no incentive to build it second and skip the Mechanized Regiment HQ (no one worth a damn will let you build it second and survive). I mean no incentive to build it at all.
Pumas seem capable of taking out any tanks enemies field, and spamming them is just so easy, especially with the on-demand smoke they have to survive anything.
Meanwhile, building the Schwerer Panzer HQ itself consumes a crapton of fuel, and you then need to gather another crapton of fuel to build a Panther or even a Panzer IV (the latter doesn't seem to make any sense given the availability of Pumas).
So it essentially comes down to either Puma spam or losing. There just doesn't seem to ever be a proper time to build the Schwerer HQ when you could just build another Puma.
That seem lame to anyone else? |