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Thread: Tank Destroyer Poll6 Feb 2020, 21:42 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 21:15 PMDoomlord52 If USF is attacking, they can keep the M36 at max range and consistently chip away at enemy tanks (except super-heavy TDs), forcing them to retreat. If those Axis tanks back off, that means USF rifles (or other infantry) can come in and wipe everything else, since OST (and to some degree OKW, but much less so) is so reliant on vehicles to counter infantry. But this is what a tank destroyer is for. It should be able to snipe at vehicles from range. The problem is if those vehicles do pull back, it can dive after them like a premium med too. It needs to be a slugger or a sniper, it can't be both. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Tank Destroyer Poll6 Feb 2020, 20:59 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 20:55 PMDoomlord52 Fair point regarding the panther. As for the M36; it's essentially the fastest tank in the game, has 60 range, and the best moving accuracy. Keeping it at max range is really easy, so nerfing its close range would do nothing. A unit that has to stay at long range can't dive and brawl. The Panther's advantage over the StuG is its ability to dive into enemy lines to secure kills. The casemate StuG can't do that because it's a casemate and can't let anything get behind it. That's what makes the Jackson so powerful: it can dive and secure kills where the SU-85 and Firefly can't. Take that away and it's a fast SU-85 without self-spotting. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer Tech Restructure6 Feb 2020, 20:52 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 20:44 PMRoastinGhost Proposal A is good, but BP2 being pointless for most commanders feels wrong. The current Ostheer tech structure already has a pointless BP3 in it though. There's got to be a useless Battle Phase somewhere in the current tech tree. It might as well go somewhere where it can do some good for some commander abilities. The Puma, the StuG-E, Osttruppen LMGs and the Assault Grenadier 6th man could all go on that BP2. My favourite remains Proposal B with the StuG not being locked, because I think that's a clever answer to Ostheer's stated need for a 1v1 buff that doesn't affect teamgames. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Tank Destroyer Poll6 Feb 2020, 20:47 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 20:37 PMCobaltX105 Annnnd you're absolutely right. I think it was my bias USF bias that kicked in there, it really was supposed to be a trade-off. So yeah, loses the really good AI ability for improved level of AT, which probably shouldn't scale with veterancy the way the 76mm does. I think it's unnecesarily trampling on the M10, 76mm and E8, personally. USF doesn't need the Jackson split, it just needs the Jackson to have an exploitable weakness like the SU-85's casemate turret or the Firefly's sluggishness. That's difficult without making it slow and destroying its identity as a unit. The best idea I've got is making it 480 HP, but the problem there is that makes the KT, Elefant and Jagdtiger two-shot it. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer Tech Restructure6 Feb 2020, 20:31 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 20:30 PMT.R. Stormjäger Proposed tech A is something I proposed yesterday, to halve the BP2 cost and put a mandatory HQ sidetech of that cost that lets you call in the Puma and Stugie. That way instead of paying 200mp 105 fuel for BP2 you have to first do a 100mp 50 fuel sidetech from HQ to allow yourself to do the 100mp 55 fuel BP2. Yeah, that's the rough idea. I think my Proposal A is an easier and slightly more intuitive implementation, but the result is the same. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Ostheer Tech Restructure6 Feb 2020, 20:29 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 20:25 PMRoastinGhost Interesting thoughts- I'm not sure if Ostheer needs any of its T3 units sooner, though. I think the simplest solution is to move some of BP2's fuel cost to the T3 building. This would make the Puma and Stug E come earlier (which they both need, I agree) without much alteration. Maybe it would make T3 skipping easier, but that's pretty niche as it is. You can only get T3 units sooner in Proposal B if you don't lock them behind Battle Phase 3. In theory, you could lock all of them, although it'd be a little weird to be able to build a structure you can't make anything from yet. The timing are completely unchanged in Proposal A. The point of Proposal A is to move the fairly pointless tech island between T3 and T4 to between T2 and T3, giving you somewhere to put the Puma. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Tank Destroyer Poll6 Feb 2020, 20:06 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 19:50 PMDoomlord52 Like the StuG/JP and Panther are intended to be, yes. Unfortunately, the Panther has the same issue the M36 has, where it's good against everything. That's partly because of its design, but also partly because of the "60 range TD Meta" right now. It's not good against everything per point of fuel though. It's 185 FU. It pulverises everything up to and including Comets in a close range brawl, but it's a fair fight against much cheaper tank destroyers at range. The Jackson doesn't need splitting into a medium silver bullet and a heavy silver bullet. It just needs to be good at range and bad close up, like the other 60 range TDs. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer Tech Restructure6 Feb 2020, 20:01 PM After all the changes to Ostheer's tech structure, Battle Phase 3 is pretty much pointless. All that separates it from T4 now is 100 MP, so they might as well be the same tech. So why not do that? If you bundle BP3 and T4 together, you free up a Battlephase. That lets you insert a teching slot between T2 and T3, fixing the longstanding problem of where to put the Puma. This is Ostheer's current teching structure. The number in brackets includes the cost of all that tech's prerequisites. Oh, and to clarify, this is not a faction overhaul. This is shuffling tech prices around like happens most patches. All units arrive at the same time. Current Tech Structure Proposed Tech Structure A Why not reorganise it like this? All the unlock costs (including teching both T3 and T4 together) are exactly the same, but now the Battle Phases are much more evenly spaced. Battle Phase 2 doesn't do anything in the nondoctrinal roster (just like Battle Phase 3 doesn't do anything in the live version), but it's an island between T2 and T3 where you can put the Puma and the StuG-E. Proposed Tech Structure B Structure A inserts one timing window between T2 and medium tanks. Structure B inserts two, and gives every tech a purpose in the nondoctrinal roster. It also provides a means to buff Ostheer in 1v1 without powering them up in teamgames. To keep the timing on the T3 units the same, you lock them behind Battle Phase 3. Any T3 unit you don't lock behind Battle Phase 3 comes 100 MP, 55 FU earlier. For example, if you didn't lock the StuG, Ostheer would be able to deploy a counter to enemy light vehicles that much earlier. That could be a good buff for them in 1v1 that shouldn't affect team games (where they usually have OKW and tech up faster anyway) that much. It's also really easy to implement this one: all you'd have to do is change the costs of the techs and lock a few units behind BP3. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: StuG and SU-766 Feb 2020, 17:55 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 16:10 PMthedarkarmadillo Heavy timing is still under construction and I do believe a tech to unlock them is necessary. Something woth a cost but more importantly a long "build" time and it should be in the tank tier as it would block out armour production while it's being researched so they need an army to stall for them instead of simply being rushed. We're not getting one. I used to support this idea too, but these days I think it'd be a mistake. A whole tech tier should not be a doctrinal thing unless you want to force every game to be a heavy game. And every game being a heavy tank game is the whole problem. Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 16:10 PMthedarkarmadillo And regardless of the exact tier, they lie in each factions top tier (or close enough for Ost) and heavies basicly ARE like a medium tank in the light phase. They shouldn't be. Imagine putting a P4 in Mechanized: you'll kill off all the other light vehicles and it'd turn into rushing mediums. So long as heavies are mostly doctrinal units, they should fit into the nondoctrinal balance. They should not warp the whole game around them like they do at the moment. Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 16:10 PMthedarkarmadillo Additionally both the StuG and the su76 are not in their respective end tiers. There is still more to thier factions and neither of those tiers are SUPPOSED to last to the 1 hour mark. This applies to SOV T3, but it does not apply to OST T3. OST T3 is a medium armour tech like SOV T4, USF T3, OKW T3 and UKF T2. Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 16:10 PMthedarkarmadillo I agree that the medium TDs shouldn't be neutered against heavy tanks but we do not want the return of spamming cheap TDs to ensure the enemy can not use any armour regardless of size. If doctrinal heavy tanks are necessary to deal with StuGs and SU-76s, then the nondoctrinal roster isn't balanced and needs to be reworked. Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 16:10 PMthedarkarmadillo Again, heavy timing is still under the scope so making them their own tier is more than possible but saying they are medium tier without accounting for the fact that they are nearly 2x the cost of a medium and also hard limited and doctrinal is disappointingly short sighted. What I'm saying is they should be balanced like a 230 FU medium: they should lose to 230 FU of medium-tier tank destroyer, and have an anti-infantry firepower disadvantage relative to two mediums to offset their survability and anti-tank advantage. They're doctrinal units. They should be a different option to building a medium tank and a tank destroyer. Right now they're a better option. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Tank Destroyer Poll6 Feb 2020, 17:35 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 16:39 PMCobaltX105 Perhaps a global upgrade similar to what existed in COH: an upgrade from the Battalion CP could unlock improved AP rounds with better pen but zero AOE, just like a tank destroyer. However, it would entirely replace the old AP rounds. This would make it either a decent AT unit or good AI unit at any given moment, but remove it's ability to do both. You'd need to replace the HE rounds, not the basic AP. Swapping HE and AP for HE and HVAP isn't a tradeoff, it's a huge buff. In: COH2 Balance