Lol, everyone here like to speak about "assymetrical balance", don't want to have copyfactions...
Making "5 men upgrade" is copy of UKF, isn't that problem? I guess it is, cos even UKF doesn't deserve to have such upgrade and you want to make it in Ostheer, which infantry is very nice already.
Yes, they can be wiped, so what? Let's make mechanic, which will save your squads with 100% from random wipe just because "it's stupid to lose your squad to 1-shot shell"? Nope, it's fine actually. That's how game works. Lost squad? Bad luck - buy new. I see no reasons to cry here.
Argument of "but my poor cons!" is available, because again - it is part of "assymetrical balance". Cons - survivable, but bad in dealing damage. Grens - deal damage nice, but fragile and dying fast. Personally I like second more, cos I don't need units, which only can get damage, I need units which damage deal! If you want to fix a point of grens, which balancing them with all other infantry squads - then fix it for all such squads, Cons really need late game firepower buff!
If you want to have as Ostheers mainline survivable infantry - change Grens and Osttrupens positions then. Osttrupens are very survivable with 6 men squads - just what you need! But you know what? We already have faction, which has Osttrupens as mainline - USSR.
About PPSHs - Assgrens are really weak and should have lategame scale STG upgrade, I think. And PZgrens are fine against PPSHs, if you keep your grens under control.
One of the major tenants of the game is infantry preservation. "You lose a vet 3 squad, so replace it" is not necessarily fine if you lost it due to a situation you cannot avoid. If you lose your vet 3 squad to mines, well that is your fault, you should have had a sweeper, you lose them at full health to a mortar randomly opening up, there is no way to predict where the mortar shells will fall. Just because of the way explosives work in this game, I doubt there is a way to change them to not squad wipe if units are clumped up, but at least the fifth man could prevent such a situation from happening. |
I don't talk about "NCO buff will make grens more deadly". I said - grenadeers are deadly enough right now, there is no problem with that. But, their power compensated with their fragileness, they actually work like glasscannon units, like M36.
You suggest to remove from them their weak side by upgrade because "they underperform in late and die fast". And I agree with that totally! But there is another mainline squad, which is also underperform in late, but not because die fast - because it can't deal enough damage.
So, I say you again - I agree with idea of increasing grensquads, but - if we making all mainline infantry squads "without weakpoints", then Conscripts deserve to have firepower upgrades, that's all. If we will only buff grens, make them good, then Cons will be only mainline infantry in game, which is underperforming hard, and grens will perform pretty much like Tommyboys.
I don't have anything against your idea, I only ask you to be fair and objective in that. Cons and Grens right now are more or less balanced as mainline infantry. One have power, other - HP. Buff one - buff another for to save it.
I more than agree with you about conscripts, I simply cannot think of a potential change to them that wouldn't unbalance the game. I'm sure that something can/should be done, just I don't know what. |
I meant only USF, when said that infantry is their armycore. UKF is ridiculous faction, needs total redesign.
This thread is about grens, but you suggest to make "1-side" buff to mainline infantry, which is already pretty balanced with it's opposite units (except UKF again). So I said - if you want to get NCO or any other way of increasing squad of grens and giving them more suriviability - I 100% agree, but only if their opponent mainline squad (Cons) will also get buff in their weak side.
Either we fixing weaknesses of all mainlines or we don't touch any, ok?
The problem with this idea is that grenadiers don't only face off against conscripts, they face off against USF and UKF, therefore, they have two other opposite mainline units. The upgrade is not a straight buff either, so it is not like it is a pure damage buff that will radically murder conscripts. This upgrade will cost more manpower on mainline infantry that are already really expensive to reinforce. |
I dont think you understand how delicate the balance between cons and grens is... They must close the distance in order to beat grens. They only win because they can out last them. You want to give them an extra man (meaning they have an even narrower margine to walk for victory) AND give that unit a close range weapon (destroying the balance they have entirely)
For the sake of conscripts then, the health of the NCO can even be lowered to 60 hp, all that matters is that his presence prevents bad RNG. |
I dont think you understand how delicate the balance between cons and grens is... They must close the distance in order to beat grens. They only win because they can out last them. You want to give them an extra man (meaning they have an even narrower margine to walk for victory) AND give that unit a close range weapon (destroying the balance they have entirely)
This 'close range weapon' is not an StG 44, this is the equivalent of fighting conscripts close range with grens and a single pioneer man. Furthermore, this upgrade will come out mid to late game anyway, still allowing conscripts their opportunities to win. |
Such as using as mainline infantry for entire game units without real scaling side tech or weapon upgrades is just not practical. All infantry in game have their weak points, except UK and USF (infantry is their armycore, nothing wrong here).
Insta-killing by random shells is not a problem - that's just bad luck, deal with it. I don't see anything bad, when I lose my officier or gren squad to mortar. There is not problem to get new squad back and Vet 3 it, cos Ostheer squads dealing good damage - exp goes fast.
I have an idea - since USSR's weapons for infantry are doctrinal, maybe NCO should be also doctrinal?
Arguably infantry is not the UKF's army core, considering how easy it is to access their emplacements/team weapons (compared to USF anyway). Furthermore, I do agree with you about conscripts deserving some kind of weapon upgrade, however this thread is not about conscripts, this is about grenadiers and how this upgrade would affect other units as they are now. |
size grade only can be balanced with lmg removal and increased RA
If the LMG cannot be used by the NCO, then the situation would be the same as it is currently. |
I would rather increase their received accuracy and loosen up the formation before trying to shoehorn in a fifth man.
I feel that even with a loosened formation, the random squad wiping will still be a problem. Especially with all the changes made to reduce RNG, I feel the NCO is the way to go. Furthermore, the NCO is an upgrade, and not forced upon the Ost player. |
Your not accounting for the lmg. The lmg is ALOT of firepower on 1 model meaning loses effect damage attrition far far less.
Then perhaps make it so that the NCO cannot use the LMG. |
Keep in mind, that Cons dying way faster, since they have bigger target size, than grens and any other infantry squad. And Cons don't lose too much firepower, cos they don't have a lot even when it's 6 men squad.
Similar overall damage yes, but waaaay lower accuracy and rate of fire. Both of those things making their firepower really low + no additional weapons without doctrines. That's a way of making that "assymetrical balance". Soviet infantry is weak but live long - Ostheer infantry are powerful in dealing damage, but vunerable and dying fast. Everything is right here.
My point was - if you going to buff mainline infantry of 1 faction by fixing their serious weak side, buff their opposite type unit Conscripts by fixing their serious weak side - firepower. Isn't that reasonable? Personally, I like Grens right now more than Cons, even if they are dying so fast. They are dying fast, but make your enemy die faster.
Even with the upgrade, the grenadiers will still become combat ineffective as quickly as they normally do, they just won't be squad wiped as easily which is not a bad thing. This upgrade does not completely 'fix' the weakness of the Ost squads. A five man squad of actual riflemen would be fixing that. Also important is the fact that this upgrade only comes with mid game, giving the Soviet player all the way until the German player starts getting tanks the infantry advantage. Believe me, I love grens as they are now, I prefer them to most other infantry. My only problem is when I've kept a Vet 3 Gren squad alive with good micro all game, and in a critical moment, they are insta-killed by a random mortar shell, something that when it happens to my Allied squads, I usually at least have one man leftover. With the amount of artillery that has been added since it was just Ost v. Soviets, four man mainline infantry squads are just not practical. |
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