Ost Grenadier Squad Size Upgrade

From my experience of playing with Ostheer, I would say that grenadiers scale relatively well into the late game. The only issue I have encountered with them is simply that they are prone to being squad wiped due to their small squad size. That is why I am suggesting an upgrade available after upgrading to Battlephase 2, for a fifth man to be added to the squad. However, the purpose of this fifth man is not so much to add combat effectiveness to the squad so much as survivability. Adding a fifth grenadier would simply unbalance what was otherwise a pretty balanced unit.

Instead, the upgrade would add an 'experienced NCO' to all grenadier squads similar to the 'bolster infantry sections' upgrade of the British. Instead of carrying a standard rifle which would give the squad an edge in combat, the NCO would carry an MP 40, preferably with the performance similar to the pioneers' MP 40s. That way, at distance, the squad should output essentially the same damage as it does now and at close range, it will be the equivalent of a 1 man pioneer squad supporting the grenadiers, overall not really a threat.

Visually, the NCO could use the grenadier model, though perhaps without a helmet cover or some other small difference. For the sake of distinction from 'bolster infantry sections', the NCO could also perhaps grant a passive +5% experience to the squad while he is alive, though to reinforce, he may cost up to 36 MP.

The reasoning for adding the upgrade after Battlephase 2 (StuG, Ostwind, and Panzer IV) is so that in the early game, allied infantry such as American riflemen will still keep their squad size advantage while there are little to no possibilities for random squad wiping, though by the mid to late game, the Ostheer player can essentially protect their squads to a degree from mass artillery. As with the British, increased squad sizes equals slightly more pop taken by the squad, and more MP spent on reinforcing.

Please post feedback below. The point of this idea is to help alleviate the grenadier's squad wipe potential while effecting their current balance as little as possible. This does not apply to panzergrens as they are an elite squad and deserve the risk v. reward of their small squad size.

Good idea! I like it!

Idea of "increasing Ost squads survivability" is good, surely. But... if that will be done, I think, we will also need to get weapon upgrades for Conscripts, like DP-28s or SVTs or something like that.

Such as low firepower of conscripts is their weakness, compensated by survivability, low survivability of Ost squads is their weakness, compensated by serious firepower (good accuracy, weapon upgrades...). If you gonna "heal" weakness of 1 type of infantry - don't forget to heal another similar mainline infantry kind, which also should be healed after that for purpouses of balance.

Anyway, I would agree with that NCO or whatever else kind of making Ost squads live longer, but only in package with firepower upgrades for soviet Cons. It might be weapons, it might be something, that increasing their shitty accuracy and low fire rate... Whatever.

P.S. Since we talk about squad increasing - I don't understand why 4 men tommy squad costs 280 MP, but 5 men suqad costs... 280 MP? Guess it should cost at least 40 MP more! And anyway, that increasing squad ability for UK is OP. Their infantry is powerful enough, getiing bonuses from cover, have wide weaponary... and can be squad increased. I don't see any reason, why they deserve to have such thing, really.

Idea of "increasing Ost squads survivability" is good, surely. But... if that will be done, I think, we will also need to get weapon upgrades for Conscripts, like DP-28s or SVTs or something like that.

Such as low firepower of conscripts is their weakness, compensated by survivability, low survivability of Ost squads is their weakness, compensated by serious firepower (good accuracy, weapon upgrades...). If you gonna "heal" weakness of 1 type of infantry - don't forget to heal another similar mainline infantry kind, which also should be healed after that for purpouses of balance.

Anyway, I would agree with that NCO or whatever else kind of making Ost squads live longer, but only in package with firepower upgrades for soviet Cons. It might be weapons, it might be something, that increasing their shitty accuracy and low fire rate... Whatever.

P.S. Since we talk about squad increasing - I don't understand why 4 men tommy squad costs 280 MP, but 5 men suqad costs... 280 MP? Guess it should cost at least 40 MP more! And anyway, that increasing squad ability for UK is OP. Their infantry is powerful enough, getiing bonuses from cover, have wide weaponary... and can be squad increased. I don't see any reason, why they deserve to have such thing, really.

Keep in mind that another advantage of conscripts is that they lose less firepower per man lost versus Grens. So if cons lost one man, they still have 5/6 of their damage versus Grens losing a man going to only 3/4 of their firepower. If I'm not mistaken, conscripts have a similar overall damage output to grens, just spread out over 6 men. Even with the NCO, you can lose a gren and still have four men, but one of them is effectively useless in combat.

Keep in mind that another advantage of conscripts is that they lose less firepower per man lost versus Grens. So if cons lost one man, they still have 5/6 of their damage versus Grens losing a man going to only 3/4 of their firepower. If I'm not mistaken, conscripts have a similar overall damage output to grens, just spread out over 6 men. Even with the NCO, you can lose a gren and still have four men, but one of them is effectively useless in combat.

Keep in mind, that Cons dying way faster, since they have bigger target size, than grens and any other infantry squad. And Cons don't lose too much firepower, cos they don't have a lot even when it's 6 men squad.

Similar overall damage yes, but waaaay lower accuracy and rate of fire. Both of those things making their firepower really low + no additional weapons without doctrines. That's a way of making that "assymetrical balance". Soviet infantry is weak but live long - Ostheer infantry are powerful in dealing damage, but vunerable and dying fast. Everything is right here.

My point was - if you going to buff mainline infantry of 1 faction by fixing their serious weak side, buff their opposite type unit Conscripts by fixing their serious weak side - firepower. Isn't that reasonable? Personally, I like Grens right now more than Cons, even if they are dying so fast. They are dying fast, but make your enemy die faster.

Idea of "increasing Ost squads survivability" is good, surely. But... if that will be done, I think, we will also need to get weapon upgrades for Conscripts, like DP-28s or SVTs or something like that.

Such as low firepower of conscripts is their weakness, compensated by survivability, low survivability of Ost squads is their weakness, compensated by serious firepower (good accuracy, weapon upgrades...). If you gonna "heal" weakness of 1 type of infantry - don't forget to heal another similar mainline infantry kind, which also should be healed after that for purpouses of balance.

Anyway, I would agree with that NCO or whatever else kind of making Ost squads live longer, but only in package with firepower upgrades for soviet Cons. It might be weapons, it might be something, that increasing their shitty accuracy and low fire rate... Whatever.

P.S. Since we talk about squad increasing - I don't understand why 4 men tommy squad costs 280 MP, but 5 men suqad costs... 280 MP? Guess it should cost at least 40 MP more! And anyway, that increasing squad ability for UK is OP. Their infantry is powerful enough, getiing bonuses from cover, have wide weaponary... and can be squad increased. I don't see any reason, why they deserve to have such thing, really.

Why is it that anytime someone mentions upping the survivability (not damage) of Ost units the allied bandwagon jumps on the "buff conscripts"-wagon?

Keep in mind that another advantage of conscripts is that they lose less firepower per man lost versus Grens. So if cons lost one man, they still have 5/6 of their damage versus Grens losing a man going to only 3/4 of their firepower. If I'm not mistaken, conscripts have a similar overall damage output to grens, just spread out over 6 men. Even with the NCO, you can lose a gren and still have four men, but one of them is effectively useless in combat.

Your not accounting for the lmg. The lmg is ALOT of firepower on 1 model meaning loses effect damage attrition far far less.

I would rather increase their received accuracy and loosen up the formation before trying to shoehorn in a fifth man.

Keep in mind, that Cons dying way faster, since they have bigger target size, than grens and any other infantry squad. And Cons don't lose too much firepower, cos they don't have a lot even when it's 6 men squad.

Similar overall damage yes, but waaaay lower accuracy and rate of fire. Both of those things making their firepower really low + no additional weapons without doctrines. That's a way of making that "assymetrical balance". Soviet infantry is weak but live long - Ostheer infantry are powerful in dealing damage, but vunerable and dying fast. Everything is right here.

My point was - if you going to buff mainline infantry of 1 faction by fixing their serious weak side, buff their opposite type unit Conscripts by fixing their serious weak side - firepower. Isn't that reasonable? Personally, I like Grens right now more than Cons, even if they are dying so fast. They are dying fast, but make your enemy die faster.

Even with the upgrade, the grenadiers will still become combat ineffective as quickly as they normally do, they just won't be squad wiped as easily which is not a bad thing. This upgrade does not completely 'fix' the weakness of the Ost squads. A five man squad of actual riflemen would be fixing that. Also important is the fact that this upgrade only comes with mid game, giving the Soviet player all the way until the German player starts getting tanks the infantry advantage. Believe me, I love grens as they are now, I prefer them to most other infantry. My only problem is when I've kept a Vet 3 Gren squad alive with good micro all game, and in a critical moment, they are insta-killed by a random mortar shell, something that when it happens to my Allied squads, I usually at least have one man leftover. With the amount of artillery that has been added since it was just Ost v. Soviets, four man mainline infantry squads are just not practical.

Your not accounting for the lmg. The lmg is ALOT of firepower on 1 model meaning loses effect damage attrition far far less.

Then perhaps make it so that the NCO cannot use the LMG.

Idea of "increasing Ost squads survivability" is good, surely. But... if that will be done, I think, we will also need to get weapon upgrades for Conscripts, like DP-28s or SVTs or something like that.

While I agree, the upgrade would need to be as late-game as the Ost gren upgrade, and would need to only just increase the squad firepower to match the HP increase on the grens. Since in theory we'd be seeing an 80hp increase (so, 25%), and that 25% HP would need to be split across the 6 cons DPS pool... we're looking at something like 4.2% DPS increase per model. Not really sure if that's upgrade worthy.

P.S. Since we talk about squad increasing - I don't understand why 4 men tommy squad costs 280 MP, but 5 men suqad costs... 280 MP?

My guess is it's because there's no system in place to handle a change in squad cost at production level.

I would rather increase their received accuracy and loosen up the formation before trying to shoehorn in a fifth man.

I feel that even with a loosened formation, the random squad wiping will still be a problem. Especially with all the changes made to reduce RNG, I feel the NCO is the way to go. Furthermore, the NCO is an upgrade, and not forced upon the Ost player.

size grade only can be balanced with lmg removal and increased RA

size grade only can be balanced with lmg removal and increased RA

If the LMG cannot be used by the NCO, then the situation would be the same as it is currently.

size grade only can be balanced with lmg removal and increased RA

Wat.

The point is to increase late game survivability; not sure how nerfing grens into the ground early game (increased Reinf cost) and late game (no LMG) would accomplish that.

Also size upgrades are already done by the brits with zero downsides.

Believe me, I love grens as they are now, I prefer them to most other infantry. My only problem is when I've kept a Vet 3 Gren squad alive with good micro all game, and in a critical moment, they are insta-killed by a random mortar shell, something that when it happens to my Allied squads, I usually at least have one man leftover. With the amount of artillery that has been added since it was just Ost v. Soviets, four man mainline infantry squads are just not practical.

Such as using as mainline infantry for entire game units without real scaling side tech or weapon upgrades is just not practical. All infantry in game have their weak points, except UK and USF (infantry is their armycore, nothing wrong here).

Insta-killing by random shells is not a problem - that's just bad luck, deal with it. I don't see anything bad, when I lose my officier or gren squad to mortar. There is not problem to get new squad back and Vet 3 it, cos Ostheer squads dealing good damage - exp goes fast.

I have an idea - since USSR's weapons for infantry are doctrinal, maybe NCO should be also doctrinal?

I dont think you understand how delicate the balance between cons and grens is... They must close the distance in order to beat grens. They only win because they can out last them. You want to give them an extra man (meaning they have an even narrower margine to walk for victory) AND give that unit a close range weapon (destroying the balance they have entirely)

Such as using as mainline infantry for entire game units without real scaling side tech or weapon upgrades is just not practical. All infantry in game have their weak points, except UK and USF (infantry is their armycore, nothing wrong here).

Insta-killing by random shells is not a problem - that's just bad luck, deal with it. I don't see anything bad, when I lose my officier or gren squad to mortar. There is not problem to get new squad back and Vet 3 it, cos Ostheer squads dealing good damage - exp goes fast.

I have an idea - since USSR's weapons for infantry are doctrinal, maybe NCO should be also doctrinal?

Arguably infantry is not the UKF's army core, considering how easy it is to access their emplacements/team weapons (compared to USF anyway). Furthermore, I do agree with you about conscripts deserving some kind of weapon upgrade, however this thread is not about conscripts, this is about grenadiers and how this upgrade would affect other units as they are now.

I dont think you understand how delicate the balance between cons and grens is... They must close the distance in order to beat grens. They only win because they can out last them. You want to give them an extra man (meaning they have an even narrower margine to walk for victory) AND give that unit a close range weapon (destroying the balance they have entirely)

This 'close range weapon' is not an StG 44, this is the equivalent of fighting conscripts close range with grens and a single pioneer man. Furthermore, this upgrade will come out mid to late game anyway, still allowing conscripts their opportunities to win.

Arguably infantry is not the UKF's army core, considering how easy it is to access their emplacements/team weapons (compared to USF anyway). Furthermore, I do agree with you about conscripts deserving some kind of weapon upgrade, however this thread is not about conscripts, this is about grenadiers and how this upgrade would affect other units as they are now.

I meant only USF, when said that infantry is their armycore. UKF is ridiculous faction, needs total redesign.

This thread is about grens, but you suggest to make "1-side" buff to mainline infantry, which is already pretty balanced with it's opposite units (except UKF again). So I said - if you want to get NCO or any other way of increasing squad of grens and giving them more suriviability - I 100% agree, but only if their opponent mainline squad (Cons) will also get buff in their weak side.

Either we fixing weaknesses of all mainlines or we don't touch any, ok?