You still do not realize that nobody respects your opinions on here? How many times do we have to repeat this? You're going to be mocked for as long as you're here.
This is forum and you should respect other users.
What you are describing is called trolling but you can not bully me out of here.
I'm going to repeat this all over again.
221 and the 223 are the same vehicle functionally, you do not spawn a new one by upgrading it, so I don't care which one specifically generates resources and which one doesn't.
You not actual repeating anything since this is a new claim and a false one I might add.
223 has more utility and better stats than 221 so they are not the same vehicle, this is simply not an upgrade that provides a pintle MG or armor. That is why the vehicle changes name.
6pounder/ZiS > M1 ATG
PTRS are better at dealing with LVs because they cannot miss them, and fire faster.
PIATs are trash but UKF have linear teching which means they will always have access to a ATG unlike Soviets.
Nothing here is relevant.
Saying that the Kubel MG34 has inferior DPS to the MG42 on the 221 shows that you don't actually play this game, especially since it has the same effective DPS as a Ober squad without ever having to get in close range unlike the 221.By the time a 221 comes out, you can tech up shortly afterwards Lieu with handheld AT.
There is no such answer for USF if a Kubel is the first thing they see.
Kubel does not have the same "effective" DPS as an Ober squad.
If in your opinion Kubel has better DPS than 221 and 221 is not an issue because counter comes shortly after you should be arguing with OP who finds 221 more dangerous than kubel and not me.
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I agree that reinforcement time from Halftracks and Medical Trucks should be longer if it's outside base sector. (Probably not COH2 forward retreat point long... that always felt too long to me).
The "Recrew Team Weapon" ability probably needs some kind of cool-down or delay on how long it takes before team weapon can retreat/attack. OR maybe you can't use it in combat. Definitely could be one of those "stealth OP" abilities that takes a while to catch on.
Glad you agree.
Imagine how little time a player would needs to reinforce heal and re-crew weapon if one manages to push the enemy off the field.
And how hard it push an enemy of field that can easily reinforce/heal on any point of the map. |
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Another issue is the transports and passengers.
Although I did not have to test extensively it seem that they work similarly to COH2 meaning that there is too much RNG involved. When a transport is destroyed passenger can remain unscathed or wiped.
Some times one loses both the vehicle and passengers and others although the vehicle is destroyed the passenger can accomplice what they where sent to do making play and counter play very unpredictable. Since the number of transports seem to have been increased this imo should be looked at.
Suggestion:
Lower the critical death to minimum, add an explosion that does limited friendly fire damage only but suppresses. That would ensure that the results of a transport being blown up would be consistent. |
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I will start with improvement:
The new commander system is much better since player are allowed to makes choice.
The tech system again has the potential to be a huge improvement since player again have to decide what to invest in.
Now for the thing that do not look promising.
Forward healing/reinforcement points
I am not sure why Relic has not learn the lesson since it become obvious from the USF Alpha ambulance. Easy healing reinforcing on field and even worse the re-crewing of support weapons weapons leads to static blobbing game, reduces the value of flank attack and if one choose to attack make the winner of fight gain a huge advantage.
Suggestions:
Increase reinforcement time/healing and add a bonus in base sector. That would allow separate balancing of in base and out side of it.
Reduce the impact of trucks by allow them to heal/reinforce only passengers adding micro to them. Further reduce their impact by replacing their ability to re-crew support weapon with the ability to transport them. One could get a temp "AI" crew to load mortars/HMG and tow ATG.
Maybe add an ability for this trucks to set routes from base to a points where they would transport troops automatically.
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Another trash vipper post, to be expected.
Pls try to avoid non constructive comments like this one.
It literally is a utility unit, resource generation+free sight with vet.
You are confusing the 221 with 223
221 is not resource generation unit that is 223 and for that utility you pay extra resource so your original claim that "It's supposed to be a utility vehicle not frontline" is false.
Why should a faction with more vet-bonuses get buffs that make it easier to gain that same vet?
What is the point of having vet bonuses if the one can never benefit from them because one not reach that vet level.
The point of OKW was to have expensive, relatively fragile(most) units that pay-off later in the match provided you have good unit conservation. There shouldn't be buffs that make it easier to for these units to get vet.
That your own (false) theory. KT would not have any place in such a faction.
Unit like the 221 should be able to vet.
By the time you sidetech weapons racks and have enough muni to fight off a kubel with zooks, you have already been pushed off the map and lost the game.You have 5000+ matches in this game yet you still don't know jack shit about it lmfao.
Bazooka is one of cheapest hand held AT weapon both in cost and tech. If one needs them one can get the pretty early.
SOV/UKF have much easier access to AT that is also superior to USF AT.
That is irrelevant/false.
PTRS>zooks early game
That is also irrelevant.
If you don't go T1 SOV you will have to build T2 and have access to ZiS
UKF have access to an ATG through their linear teching
And again irrelevant
Kubel is also a debatably better combat wise than a 221, since it also meshes extremely well with Sturms.
Nope it is not debatable, kubel is inferior combat wise since it is less durable, has inferior DPS (almost in all ranges) and especially on the move and no turret .
If kubel was better combat wise this thread would be called "0 minute kubel is obscene".
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So what if there weren't any vet 5 221s? It's supposed to be a utility vehicle not frontline.
What is that "great utility" that 221 has?
What make you think that 221 is not meant to fight in the early stages of the game the same way micro are meant to fight?
Lowering the XP value of 221 was a change in the right direction and its XP value is still higher of that of the M20.
Hilarious how you respond to a perfectly reasonable post by just calling him a fanboy instead of addressing the fact that USF gets pushed off the map by OKW superlights with ease
If you have so much trouble vs super light with USF you can simply equip AT to your RE.
USF has cheap at access to AT with tech cost of 150/15 (less than a 221) 50 mu. |
Do you understand that making something more consistent = making it better = buff? Or don't you? I'm guessing you're understanding it but not liking it when it comes to things you don't agree with. end of the debate with you, bye.
Rear echelon/CE/Conscripts had the same DPS before and after the change.
The unit's performance was simply more based on RNG, the performance is now less RNG and thus more consistent (it does not perform better), what is so hard for you to understand? |
I'm glad you agree with me it is not a buff even if they presented as such during the patch preview.
Feel free to provide the "presentation" as buff in preview because it not present as one in the patch notes.
and here is the preview:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/95396/september-balance-patch-preview-spbp-general-discussion
Rear Echelon Troops
To make Rear Echelon Troops carbines perform more consistently, as currently they are very RNG dependent with their low accuracy but high rate of fire and damage, their accuracy has been increased. In return their damage per bullet will be reduced, to keep the same total DPS as now
- Damage from 10 to 8
- Accuracy from 0.403/0.288/0.23 to 0.51/0.3456/0.276
with no mention of a buff.
Guess this completely shuts down the "conspiracy theory". |
Over 4 years the 221 has directly or indirectly been buffed against USF. I don't see much the reason to compare it to WC, UC or M3 since USF, at least, don't get proper counter until 2 minutes later, not like WH or OKW whose get pfaust and rak at the same time those mentioned units hit the field.
But let's focus on the 221.
December 12th 2018
The commander is revamped
New Ability Line-Up
221
Emergency Repairs
Panzer Commander
Heat Rounds
Sturmtiger
I remember that time you could normally deal with a 221 with riflemen, the way it is supposed to be since RM cost 280 manpower and the 221 is finally just a utility vehicle that cost 220 /20 fuel and a large part of this cost should be for their utility, not combat capacity.
221 has the limited utility of dropping a single medical kit, something one can get in packaged of 3 from SP and sight which is available to other light like the kubel. When it comes to utility it does not really provide much to OKW.
When it comes to DPS:
it inferior to that of the M3 at all ranges although doctrinal
it is inferior to that of the bren of UC above range 25 (that can upgrade weapons) although doctrinal
it is inferior to that of WC51 above range 27
and both m3 and wc51 can have passenger that fight.
In sort its "combat capacity" is in line with other vehicles.
But yeh, 3 months later
Feb 7th 2109
Cost from 220/20 to 220/15
Radio upgrade fuel cost increased by 5
Penetration from 1/1/1 to 1.2/1/1
Vet requirements reduced by 15%
Armour increased to 5.4 from 4
Rear Echelons were then the way to go to deal with it early game thank to their 10 damage per shot and no need for accuracy to damage vehicle so when the armor doesn't apply you actually deal damage... With the armor increase value riflemen lost value in fighting it unless in perfect green cover.
But then...
September 2019 Balance Update
Previously, Rear Echelon carbines were far too inaccurate, yet dealt somewhat high damage. This made them unreliable in most cases, even at point-blank. To make their carbines perform more consistently, damage has been reduced while accuracy has been increased.
M1 Carbine damage from 10 to 8
M1 Carbine accuracy from 0.403/0.288/0.23 to 0.51/0.3456/0.276
A clear nerf disguished as a buff. Nobody asked for it, the change came out from nowhere but around the same time some people in the modding team felt the kubel wasn't enough good early game. (Kubel got buffed twice the same year, june and september), before that RE had easy time dealing with the Kubel, after september not anymore and opened new wonderful strategies vs USF as the 2 or 3 kubel start into JLI or whatever else. Just because riflemen and then Re suck so much vs them.
Lately because the 221 wasn't already good enough, as you say nobody complained about it so there were still room for something!
Commander Update 2021 with Performance fixes - June 16th 2021
Sdfkfz 221/223
The 221 is having its veterancy requirements lowered. Previously it took too long for this unit to gain veterancy, even when near front-line troops.
Veterancy requirements from 720/1440/2880/3850/4750 to 540/1080/2160/2870/3580
Riegel AT Mines ability now requires veterancy level 4 rather than 5
-25% damage during Lockdown now requires veterancy level 5 rather than 4
Can now fire at aircraft
Evidently, with a smol inconsistent nerf to "compensate".
So yes nobody complained about it till now but it's not an argument, at best a justification for doing wrongly until someone raises his hand.
The change of lowering damage and increasing Accuracy was never presented as buff, it clearly described as "consistency" change to reduce RNG and contrary to what you claimed it was asked multiple times and even for other units like the Conscripts and CE. It is nerf but only vs certain target like micro light. There is simply no room for "conspiracy theories". |
I meant in combination. As far as I'm aware (take with a grain of salt as I don't play COH2 much), LVs either get an HP boost with vet, or they get/have smoke dispenser.
M20 gets HP with upgrade armor with veterancy and smoke stock.
Well, it's all well and good, but who do you shoot at when the 221 dives in to displace you from cover, and spios charge in with volks or whatever. 221, which will get repaired and not bleed, or the volk/spio which can bleed, but then the 221 will risk nothing diving all the way up to the base.
Hell, last game, paths + echelon behind green cover were destroyed by a charging spio over neutral cover (charge was about 4 seconds before spios got point blank). Hence why 221 is really good vs USF, especially vs pathfinders. Of course, most people forget that you can use the 221 to drive up (and kubel) and win any engagement early on with OKW. So it's easier vs forgetful people.
Does SP vs Paths/Echelon has anything to do with subject of the this thread or is this just a random rant?
That's why UC, kubel, M3, and all other super LVs should literally have paper thin armour and more decent offensive abilities if they lack utility.
None of the these vehicles luck utility.
2 frontal, and 1 rear armor. Only problem would be the 6 man cons.Since every shot will most likely penetrate, having 6 rifles firing at a decent rate is much stronger than pathfinders for example with the slow firing snipers, and the meh firing carbines. Or Sections, with higher damage but lower ROF.
I am not sure if you are aware how DPS work but with an armor 2/1 these vehicles would die like flies since every shot would hit them at any range and half/all would penetrate them.
Pathfinder do not have med carbines they actually have the elite carbines that paras use.
True. I've yet to see a high rank OKW player not play elite armoured and go for the fast 221 in 3v3. Brits can stomp OKW early on, before the likes of JLI, ISGs and such, purely by placing the sections behind cover on most lane-y maps. 221 completely negates that. Mainly because even though there is a huge tank wreck, and the kubel is driving straight at it, the sections will run around  like the kubel will phase through the wreckage and drive over them.
Still, there should have been better designs than this. UC is stupid, but at least OKW has t0 raketen and spios with MGs to melt the UC if caught out of position (and raketen is never a bad investment, especially since you can retreat it if you're forgetful).
I haven't seen the M3 clown car action in 3v3 for a year now. Mostly because everyone plays either fussies or elite(221) so the clown car is pointless. You either get the min 0 snare, or you get the LV that can pressure the M3. And if you can force the soviet player to upgrade the penals with PTRS, then you're winning the lane most certainly.
Have never seen the WC51 in teamgames, at all. It's in a mega nerfed 1v1 commander, which will never work in 2v2+ unless the enemy is incompetent.
So all in all, there is a pattern of bad design/balance. Nothing OP or UP, just bad design
There is bad design when it comes to 221/222 but not for the reasons you claim. |
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