Command Panther to Breakthrough. Strongest call-in to weakest doctrine.
Sturmtiger to Special Operations. Weakest call-in to strongest doctrine.
Jadgtiger to Elite Armored. The Panzer Commander on another tank can spot for it, and HEAT is HEAT.
Hmmm, that works as well I guess, I'll add it as a 4th option.
I mean I thought about the Jagdtiger in Elite Armor as I already mentioned, but not the rest of what you wrote. |
So this was discussed months ago in other topics and since the preview mod has hit I think it's time it gets it's own dedicated thread.
So to begin, I really think that the Sturmtiger is an oddball in the Elite Armor doctrine, it's an assault gun/breakthrough type heavy vehicle that's made even better versus blobs in the preview mod but doesn't really have synergy with the rest of the doctrine I feel, unlike the Jagdtiger and the Panzerfusiliers in the Breakthrough Doctrine for example where they compliment each other because of the PF's flares giving the JT sight.
Now people have also expressed their thoughts about the Command Panther replacing the ST in Elite Armor but of course there is the problem there of the CP already being a good enough vehicle on it's own, coupled with the buffs and abilities Elite Armor offers it could become problematic unless the unit is tweaked in order to accompany it's new doctrine.
The way I see it, there are 3, perhaps 4 options right now.
First option is to switch out the Sturmtiger and Jagdtiger.
2nd option is to switch out the Sturmtiger, Command Panther and Jagdtiger. That would mean: Sturmtiger goes in Breakthrough, Command Panther goes in Elite Armor, and Jagdtiger goes in Special Operations, altho then the JT will be the oddball perhaps.
3rd option as suggested by Lago - "Command Panther to Breakthrough. Strongest call-in to weakest doctrine.
Sturmtiger to Special Operations. Weakest call-in to strongest doctrine.
Jadgtiger to Elite Armored. The Panzer Commander on another tank can spot for it, and HEAT is HEAT."
4rd option is replace the Sturmtiger with a Tiger, there are even voice lines for that and a StuG for the OKW. It would be a cheaper alternative than getting a King Tiger if you're in a pinch. Problem then is that the Sturmtiger will have no home, or maybe it could be put into Firestorm somehow? I really have no idea. |
So I just tested out the Elite Armor doctrine for the OKW and these are my thoughts:
Signal Relay I didn't use once, as others have said it's a very... situational if not underwhelming ability.
Emergency repair needs a bit more tweaking because of the low amount of health it actually repairs while I THINK still risking the tank of being abandoned if hit while repairing.
HEAT Rounds I only used once against an enemy tank but again, it's extremely situational and you're lucky if you can get 1 or 2 shots out before it ends, needs to have a bit longer of a timer maybe.
The Panzer Commander I found a bit better now so no trouble there I suppose.
The Sturmtiger I found still largely useless apart from I guess suppressing blobs, I hit an enemy (captured) StuG and it only slightly chipped it's health and stunned it, nothing more really. While it probably would be OP if it did more I find it... out of place(?) perhaps for the doctrine, plus the abandon on reload is still badly designed since I think I can just ground fire on it to force an abandon and get a new one which is abusable.
All in all as others have said, the commander is very ammunition heavy, so what I suggest is the replacement of Signal Relay (and HEAT rounds if they are not improved) with something... fuel and manpower priced I guess, like that 223 Scout/Command Car I suggested that can capture and lock down territory, I think it fits in an overall vehicle oriented doctrine.
Another idea I had was for a passive ability that grants the ability to OKW vehicles (or at least tanks) to capture territory at like, Vet 2 for instance, it would be unique with the fact that it would not require manpower, fuel or ammunition but experience will be it's price.
Panzer Tactician would also be nice to either replace Signal Relay or HEAT rounds like others suggested and I myself have noticed, it would still be an ammo based ability but you'd get more out of it in the long run compared to SR or the HEAT rounds in my opinion.
That's it for the OKW from me, I don't think I have the Overwatch doctrine in order to test it, next up are the Brits.
Edit: About the Sturmtiger, I really think that there should be an experiment with the shifting around of the OKW heavy calls in like the Command Panther, Jagdtiger and Sturmtiger to see what fits where better and what works, and of course, doesn't.
Edit2: I forgot that there is another option of putting the Tiger and StuG III G in as cheaper alternatives to the Jagdpanzer IV and KT, also having 2 manpower and fuel based things in the doctrine as well. They even have voice lines. |
These are available in the files:
- Forward Observation Officer (Sexton concentration barrage + Sexton airburst barrage abilities)
- PIAT Commandos (2 piats)
- Royal Engineer Demolition Team (gammon bomb + demolition charge abilities)
- Flamethrower Infantry Section (2 flamethrowers)
- Reconnaissance Section (toggle to cloak while moving but not shoot at the same time + 4 scoped rifles)
- Vehicle crew
Hmmmm, replacing the Croc in Tac Support with an AVRE with a demo specialist crew would be a nice change, what do you think?
I mean it would be unique and all that, altho I'm not sure how useful it will be in practice however, I never got to implementing vehicle crews in other Armies.
Apart from that, Flame IS would be considered OP as were Flame Riflemen, PIAT Commandos you can already get by arming them with double PIATs, RE Demo Squad came in with the AVRE I think in the UKF Alpha but I'm not too sure how useful they were exactly.
The officer, Recon Section and AVRE with Demo crew seem to be the only real options here, at least I think so. |
It's a small difference, but I was hoping for less predictable gameplay. Wouldn't it be more fun if this commander got its own specialty?
Maybe the unused recon section or observation officer? Both would fit perfect in a tactical support regiment.
Can you tell us any other UKF units that aren't in use? I've was in the UKF Alpha but you are more experienced than me with the knowledge of unused units, right now I can only remember that the AVRE had a demolition specialist squad in it at some point in development apart from the units you already said. |
Hmmm, when I hear of "elite" I either think vet 5 or an "ace" sort of tank, maybe a Sherman E8 Ace like Fury? |
11cp: Sturmtiger
Changes seem fine, although I'd argue that the AVRE also deserves the same nerfs, one shot units are annoying as all hell
There's my suggestions as to remedy some of the issues the doctrine has.
How about completely replacing it instead with like either the Command Panther or Jagdtiger, but I'd rather prefer the CP. |
Why would this "solve their lategame problems"? Their lategame problems as I have experienced is lacking a damage sponge, not another 640 medium.
That's why I suggested the Sherman Jumbo but I guess Relic thought otherwise. |
I hear what you're saying. Two things on the general topic.
Mobile mortar (usf mortar) was something I suggested as a possibility for the new Brit doctrine. It definitely still is if people want it, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it.
Giving Brits a normal mortar as stock is a massive change. Some people would be for it, but the ramifications would be major IMO. Similarly, any meaningful changes to the Mortar Pit, represents a significant task with major consequences.
Ultimately, this update isn't a full-on balance patch. The scope is to rework ten commanders, and improve the game through that work. We've been able to step slightly outside the confines of this scope with the Brit mine + snare, and the Puma BP2 lock, because those are glaring issues, which hopefully have low impact solutions (unlike some other items).
Hope this makes some sense!
Thank you for your answer, I was hoping that something like what happened in the USF's case during the UKF Alpha and there was a mobile mortar added by default but I guess not.
Still tho, better than us just wondering why. |
Yes, this was discussed and is still on the table.
The rationale for trialing these two changes for the Brits is as follows.
1) People are saying Brits are struggling in certain modes. The latest balance patch altered some units that Brits were relying on. This is born out in data.
2) Sentiment suggests Brits in particular struggle with light vehicles due to lack of snare.
3) We don't want to just give tommies a snare. IMO that would be a lazy change that ruins asymmetry. It would also tip the scale in the other direction, making Brits too potent against light vehicles considering the other anti LV compensations Brits have in their arsenal.
4) Hopefully some combination of Sapper snares, Tommy light AT mines, in addition to the pre-existing compensations (aec shot, sniper, 6 pounder bonus) will amount to giving the Brits similar early-game anti-vehicle capability relative to the other factions. We just need to find that sweet spot.
The great thing about this test phase is we can make sure we get this right, because as others have pointed out, it is a potentially big change for the game. If it is too oppressive, maybe we make it require nade tech as you say. Another option is locking out piats for squads with the snare, and vis versa. Maybe only one of the new snare & mine changes is necessary.
We're definitely looking for feedback on this in particular, so all thoughts welcome, especially if peeps have played the mod.
I am glad that you guys are listening to the community, and are acting upon worries.
However there was another thing which is highly debated for the Brits, the mortar pit, and it was even teased by you guys that a mobile mortar team would be somehow added to the Brits, or was it just for this new commander that's going to be made around Christmas?
Edit: To further specify my question, is there any consideration of fixing the issue the British have with their currently immobile indirect fire option and if not why, because of the sake of symmetry or something? I'm just genuinely wondering. |