As always I will state that my complaint with OST is that grens are trash that need to specialize in durability, or firepower, and not the middleground solution we have now. As is they're mostly worthless, particularly against the WFA as rifleman can win any 1 on 1 engagement by charging them, even in green cover, and sections blow them out in any match-up except for close up early game fights.
Allied armies are being balanced against volks which are just better grens for the most part, so it shouldn't be a surprise that grens are underpreforming, and 5 men or some other infantry is the only viable open for OST.
90% of OST's issues can be fixed by changing gren RA to 1, and increasing their damage, particularly long range, to compensate. If this makes them too fragile in the late game a little bit of damage reduction can be added to vet3, or preferably to one of the later battlephases. This change gives grens a role distinct from 'worse volksgren' that gives better flavor to the faction. With higher long range damage they can actually exert map control since it doesn't take 5 minutes to win a favorable engagement, and the higher RA emphasizes good MG play to limit losses.
Interesting suggestions, thanks for your input. I always get weary about changing values surrounding core infantry, and something like you suggest is likely a pipe dream but interesting to consider. |
Ostheer absolutely has a higher skill ceiling than other factions. The issue is most players have gotten used to abusing the completely broken 5man Grens and Osttruppen and now have to play the faction properly and their delusions about their own skill have been completely shattered. They need to inhale a lot of copium and quickly.
Agreed, but to build on that, fragility is a permanent weakness, so where is the compensation for it? I've seen many players far greater than myself play properly, make one blunder and their day is ruined. Of course I understand that is often nature of high level games, positions are equal with players trying to maximise their strategic edges and a tiny advantage is all it takes to win a match but for the Ostheer, blunders or even inaccuracies are punished far more severely that doesn't seem fair, or fun to play with/against.
Take the replay I posted for example. Ostheer played perfectly, I think the use of their abilities and unit activity they were exemplary, and demonstrated a much higher skill ceiling against a higher rated opponent, but there's no reward for that, they had to play perfectly to maintain parity-- that's the issue. If two super computers play for eternity Ostheer will always lose 'cos there isn't any compensation. So I say, either lower the skill ceiling, make Ostheer less punishing to play, or... and I don't like the thought of it, reward them for when they play perfectly, but that brings back Wunderwaffe which was 104x less fun to play with/against than now, so that's a shitty idea also :/ |
Stats lie. Different match ups, different maps, different commanders, different build orders, different opponents, different RNG.
Always be skeptical with statistics, most are misleading or misinterpreted.
Ostheer has been consistently buffed since 2016/2017 ever since balance preview mod. It's a little crazy saying they suck.
Watch ML4 tourney, Ostheer didn't seem underwhelming.
I didn't present a single statistic other than the win% of the sample I saw; I presented the maps, match ups, commanders and openings.
You're welcome to be skeptical, but like I said to Katitof, doing so without actually adding to a discussion isn't exactly constructive.
I didn't see every game in ML4, what I did see was OKW being picked equally as often in days 2-4 (might be wrong) and when Ostheer were chosen, Ass Grens, VSL or Ostruppen, openings which don't perform in the same way, or nearly as well, any longer. |
In terms of 1v1 I'd argue that OST absolutely has the advantage over OKW in terms of armour, honestly. The Pwerfer and Brummbar are very common in 1v1s, and the only other major outlying unit in OKW's favour is probably the Puma.
I'll take a potentially Vet5 PiVJ and Panther over their counterparts, and the JPiV, allll day long.
If it wasn't so expensive, probably the Stuka over the Werfer as well. |
Hey,
You seem to have some idea of statistics based on your data collection, you should also know you presented it in a skewed way based on the small sample size, also on your lack of impartiality in your win loss table.
With more matches and just win/loss and some defining data, you might have a case for OST being under-powered, although I doubt it.
Hi!
I'm not basing this strictly on 14 random games, nor am I giving any pretense that I'm presenting this in a non-partisan way.
Relic took the tools away from us to tabulate the data, and when we did have it it was atrocious to use cos it took the entire population into account (if I remember correctly)
I'm not taking a purely qualitative approach. I was trying to understand what's happening strategically and tactically. I did what I could taking into account openings and commanders to try and build out that context especially compared to my own games, these were the themes and trends I identified which I didn't think could be rectified by l2p or accounted for by chaos, ie: mouse slip, lag w.e.
If you disagree with my conclusions, I'd like to know what you're seeing in your own games and games you spectate. I agree with you, it's a non scientific sample, but my --feeling-- is I could watch/play infinite games and not see much different, and maybe even worse, as things are right now I don't think it would be very much fun. |
I don't think spectating 14 games on ladder means you should radically redesign everything about Ostheer, a faction design that has lasted mostly intact since 2013.
I would make the argument that there have been radical changes to faction design since then, particularly when considering tech structure and cost, mostly for the better. Ost in its current form probably starts from the 2018 commander update, but that's a digression.
Cmon Stormjager, you've seen me analyse before, that isn't the core of my argument it runs deeper and it's something I've waited probably since at least fall of last year to express based on my own experience. My time and expertise is limited I'm not a one man balance team I've done what I could and combined my experience with that sampleto try and cross check against the eye test.
I'm not asking for radical changes, I'm just not creative enough to actually come up with anything that isn't. I think having more options for players to solve the four issues I've mentioned would make the faction, and the game, more fun to play. I don't find it fun yeeting 4 man squads with a Katy, or stealling a single mg42 and base pinning my opponent or watching great players make one positional mistake and then lose by 400 pts.
I wish things were different. |
On one of the minor points I do think the change in received accuracy for AT guns was particularly painful for ostheer
I couldn't think of any good solutions to making the PaK more durable, the 4 man crew at 320mp when it's the only reliable AT option really suffers. |
Interesting suggestions. Of the games listed who played?
Treadz,
Augy,
DSM,
Jibber,
Isildur
HD.8XX
TAD
Kobal
Markov
Finndeed
Giap
among others, I didn't keep all the receipts though. |
|
deleted, confused it with the E8. |
That's a LOT of words, but to sum them all up and cross them off:
Singular games from random players are not indicator of anything else but who is a better player.
I took a sample of a weekend of play between equally rated top players combined with what I've played myself and observed since the launch of the balance patch. Balance decisions have been made based on group stages in one off tournaments or even less in the past.
If you aren't going to engage with my observations that's fine, no one's forcing you to, but to write the trends and themes I observed off as simply fluctuations in skill or randomness is just lazy and not worth you posting at all; furthermore, when it did happen, which I mention-- it usually resulted in the Ostheer player getting crushed, blunders did not harm the allies proportionally as harshly. |
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