No weapon racks are a core design of the USF. Shreks shouldnt be allowed on all platforms. Unless of course all of a sudden Zooks can teleport into the hands of any USF unit as well as BARs etc.
Lower damage is fine for shreks. But lower accuracy would be needed too if you want true balance. The platform that gets shreks is more durable to supporting AI infantry, cheaper, and more accurate.
Even if Zooks were say all of a sudden BETTER outright then Shreks by a small margin the impact would still be less considering the overall factions (Axis better armor/HPs on average and access to Heavy tanks etc etc)
Either way in the current game Shreks are too effective and Bazookas even if they were stupidly cheap I would never put them on Rifles.
Making the Cheaper wouldnt make them very useful. They would just be an upgrade to REs. Try to get two Zooks on a Rifle squad and try to take on a P4 or Ostwind and see what happens. They are only really useful against Panthers and Stugs. Light vehicles are too hard to hit without Volks level accuracy bonuses and the AI on Ostheer mediums and the retaliative weak DPS of Zooks makes Ostheer mediums deadly against a frontal Zook Charge.
There would be situational uses for them like killing something thats seriously damaged but they will never have the impact of what Shreks enjoy currently without a significant buff.
The long range accuracy of shreks has already been nerfed, and yeah 2 zooks against a P4 or a Ostwind isn't going to work, and 2 shreks against a T34 or a Sherman isn't going to work either!
Making them cheaper is just a solution to putting them more inline with their cost, but if you nerfed shreks down to the level of Zooks then it would make Soviets ridiculously good against OKW as the IS2 would basically be a unstoppable beast that you need a KT to kill, or a Panther and a godly amount of luck.
If Zooks were better than Shreks by a slight margin than Ostheer would basically become a support faction in it's entirety, since the Tiger has lower armor than a KV1.
Honestly dude the comparison of Zooks to Shreks is pretty simple, if you take away the tech cost one is a ~okay~ at support weapon that's cheap and plentiful, the other remains expensive and tied to a single unit. |
They still have 14dps at long range - like Grens with LMG.
4 man squad with insane veterancy
Yes they still have the small chance to snipe the gunner of a MG like grens do with the LMG, but your much more likely to do that with a LMG34 and that's why you don't see that many IR StG Obers compared to people just leaving them with the 34.
As I have said before, I fully support getting rid of the LMG34 and just giving Obers some regular StG 44's to start. |
I dont think IR STGs are downgrade at all what so ever. Obers with these upgrades melt shocks, and all before it in seconds. The whole point of this upgrade is to use this commander in close quarter maps and not like steppes.
I suggest you watch ImperialDane's video where he discusses the damage distribution with Grens (4 man) vs Cons (6 man) in detail.
Solution to Obers = munition upgrade to their lmg like every other unit in the game. OKW needs more muni dump than just shreks.
The problem with the LMG34 goes beyond Obers, it's super powerful independent of the squad using it. And yes I understand that the point of the commander is for use in close range combat in an Urban environment, StG IR Obers excel at it, but at the cost of losing long range fire power. It's actually a pretty good example of a cost benefit scenario.
Iv seen Imperial Danes video, but it doesn't take into account that fact that your opponent will have more cons then you have grens because you don't need to build a tech building to get cons. Grens versus cons is much more balanced to be sure, compared to Riflemen versus Grens, but to say Grens are a amazing early game unit is dishonest. |
How Stg is a downgrade? Yes you lose long range DPS from 25 to 14 which is same DPS Grens have with LMG while your CQ dps is 64 (shocks 71) and you can ignore cover. Downgrade, really?
They lose to Cons in first 5mins but then you get LMG and you melt cons.
The lose of long range DPS is a pretty huge kick in the balls when you other alternative for long range DPS is Volks which don't beat out even vet 0 cons till vet 3. And being better in close range isn't much comfort when your enemy normally has more than just 1 shock troop and other stuff following behind.
In CQC you have much less time to react, and at a 4 man squad being to ballsy can easily net you a loss which is devastating as that's 90 munitions down the toilet plus 400 MP.
Not to mention I'll think you will find the first 5-8 minutes of a game is actually quite crucial, it really isn't a obscure fact that Ostheer has quite poor early game. |
These dont exist in 1v1. Show me a Zook blob and ill show you a US loss as they gave up their AI for weak weak weak AT.
Right now the ROF bonus of Zooks over Shreks still doesnt make for higher DPS since their damage per shot is less. They are literally worse in every regard. There are no platform for them as good as Volks when it comes to bonus accuracy through veterancy, They weaken the squad you put them on unless its an RE who are useless in a combat roll anyway, They have less Pen and less damage.
So lets look at Vet 3 rifles carrying zooks vs Vet 5 Volks with Shreks
Volks level faster with shreks due to 100% Pen on all USF vehicles. Combine this with more damage and DPS overall. And a lower XP pool then rifles.
Volks become more accurate with their Shreks then rifles can because both have the SAME accuracy yet Volks get better accuracy then rifles with their quicker attained Vet.
Zooks cost Manpower and Fuel to unlock.
So EVEN if you made Zooks Pen better without addressing their terrible damage per shot they would STILL be inferior to Shreks. And thats not even getting into the lower average HPs per USF vs Axis tanks.
Which is why I said that the price of the Zook should be drastically reduced as it's currently not worth the cost, and said that Shreks should have lower damage but get a better rate of fire, that way you can't just 1 shot a Sherman but they will still remain useful in drawn out battles. If you want to put the Zook and the Shrek on equal levels then they should cost the same and both be available to any infantry unit who wants them.
The way Stormtroopers works is actually quite cool in my opinion, sure they suck as a unit but I think all units should have a selection when it comes to upgrades making you pick and choose, rather than having just 1 you always default to. |
You see, point is, Shocks and Paras with thompson should melt everything at 0-10 range, while Grens and Obers should do that at long range.
Grens are fine, when you get close with Shocks, you need to retreat. Obers - long range units don't have to do that cause they will still win. Long range unit is winning against close range in CQ!
Not to mention STGs which give you CQ dps at almost the same level as Shocks and at long range it like Grens with LMG.
Also ignoring cover - WTF?!
The IR StG is a downgrade from the MG34 in almost every way, it's best bonus is being able to clear units out of cover which OKW lacks pretty hard since they have exactly 1 good indirect fire unit.
And Grens are not fine, they lose out to even cons at an early stage in the game due to being 4 men and lacking enough long range DPS to damage a squad enough so they can't just get in your face and wipe you.
My solution to the Obers problem has already been stated, take away the MG34 and give them 2 normal StG 44's. The IR upgrade would just give them better range and ability to negate cover. I also think that Shocks and Thompson should get a medium range buff and a close range nerf. |
I had a game last week where AT nade from 2 Rifiles and capture shreks destroyed a Panther. Shreks most def need to be in line with Zooks or vice versa. Personally, I would rather have Zooks to be even better than shreks on bases of teching for it and spending fuel on TOP of muni.
Zooks are only 55 munitions, I agree you shouldn't have to tech for them separately, they should just come in a package with the BAR tech. However; at a lower cost and them being available to basically any USF unit they are a lot less restricted as Shreks are. If you want to make Shreks and Zook's the same might as well let OKW just give a shrek to anyone who wants it. |
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It would make a lot more sense instead of buffing Zook's just reduce their cost drastically, since your trading out one of the best rifles in the game for AT. But regardless a zook blob can still put out a massive amount of DPS and it's one of the reasons you never see Ostheer t3 any more.
I would be happy with a reduction in the amount of damage shreks did but an increase in their ROF, as they are great for one big volley of damage from your volks, but the reload time makes them kinda eh in extended battles compared to dedicated AT guns/tanks. |
No, they were not suppressed.
The MG34 actually does more DPS than the IR StG's at almost all ranges so I'm not surprised your shocks died, since at vet 4 in addition to suppression Obers have a massive received accuracy bonus.
In most situations for me If I'm ever facing off against Obers of any vet level I make sure to use lots of smoke and indirect fire, at only 4 men at having the same model HP as every other unit they are extremely weak to artillery.
1 squad wipe is 400 MP and a lot of vet down the tubes. |
Next time make sure to finalize your thoughts before posting. This way you will avoid changing your opinion and retreating your statements.
I'm done discussing with you regarding OKW as you are seems to be highly biased towards this faction. Playing almost exclusively single faction and single game mode makes your balance opinions invalid and frankly false in most of the cases. Also I conclude you are not interested in game being balanced. All you care about is that your favorite faction, which is absolutely broken in 3v3 and 4v4 modes right now, remain the same way it is so you can enjoy your easy victories.
I play a majority of Axis 3v3's as I said earlier because that's what many of my friends play, I still do a lot of allies 3's and 4's as well. I also watch a large amount of streams and spend a good amount of time chatting with some quite good 1's players in the COHexpert TS server.
And Iv not changed my opinion, rather, you just love to misrepresent my arguments instead of actually trying to offer any serious rebuttal. |
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