Yes, like Sturmpios, the strongest starting infantry in the game by a long way and Kubels, the most mobile and possibly the earliest MG in the game...
I see your logic...
Yes the kubel, which has a tighter cone than the maxim. And sturms which cost an arm a leg. Rifles and Cons both beat out volks pretty handily, same goes for Grens.
Play aggressive, get in buildings, and you can shut Axis down totally in the first few minutes. And since your then denying them map control, the game is basically over unless you really fuck up. |
Allies have the early game advantage, you can logic this out pretty easy by looking at starting units. |
Cool story. "1 Jagdpanzer IV can destroy whole allied base"
Time to get back to reality.
If you've invested 320 MP in that AT gun then you don't have much AI power around to protect it.
And if you have invested in teching to SU-85 and building it, you will have same problem - schrekblob won't let it get even close to your precious building where "OKW's most valuable units are built from".
And here's even more - if Flak HQ is built near fuel then by the time you tech to your first SU-85 to clear it out, there would be a panther to prevent it.
I agreed that isn't biggest issue, but it is an issue and... come on, stop talking bs already.
Well, if you know how to sight his shreks won't ever get to your SU85 nor will his infantry ever get to your AT guns. Both options are things that are useful outside of just killing Schwer, which you can also easily do with indirect fire. 120mm mortar, Howitzers, ect.
And if he tries to repair it while your shelling it, he will lose all his Sturms very fast.
The Schwer isn't a problem with OKW, which is funny because the faction has so many other things that make very little sense.
At this point people are just bitching because the minute WFA came out people hopped on the hate wagon and haven't got off since, except after so many threads were down to discussing the very few things in OKW that aren't bullshit.
1 PTRS can also kill Elephnat but that's not the point.
You wont get enough time to shoot with AT gun. 3-5 shots maybe, then your enemy will go back to defend his truck.
The ZiS does 160 damage, which isn't that small compared to the trucks health. 3-5 shots will mess it up, so if you are hitting with things other than an AT gun then it will die fairly quickly.
The point is that people like to bitch about something that dies to indirect fire easy, and if you try and repair it while it's under indirect fire said repairing unit will die, easily.
Uh, it can kill a Jackson or Sherman. I'm saying it shouldn't be able to hurt a tank at all and a tank should dispatch it in 4-5 shots. OKW should HAVE to protect it from tanks. Right now, they don't: "Oh, my Flak truck is under attack? I'll get to it in a minute."
Yes OKW is going to rush there with all of their highly mobile AT, which consists of 2 units. Unless you think a Puma is a threat to your Jackson or sherman lol. |
Wow you make it sound almost like allies have a chance in 4v4.
You are correct 1 kubel won't stop 9 squads of inf, expect that even if all 4 players do that you are still at minute 3, and you completely ignore the fact that there are 3 other German players.
The hard hitting allied inf are less impressive in large games, actually, because their window of use is shorter, and the Germans can actually tech to better units quickly.
Also you can't lock down most of the map by minute 8 even if you can the OKW players have bases up you are going to pound your head against. And they lose nothing by having 1 person go stuka to nullify your support weapons.
Con spam and Rifle spam is just about all the allies have and its really not good.
Seriously though you make it sound like allies have the advantage in large games, and they are completely out matched from the word go.
No they are not, I agree it's stupid that one faction has an advantage are certain points in the game and the other doesn't, and yes I think it's stupid that allies have a stupid easy way to win in the first 8 minutes and that it's equally stupid that after that it's a race against time.
Team games amplify the strengths of each side, for one, the early game, the other, the late game.
4v4's aren't balanced by any margin, but they simply suffer from the same thing every game mode does only amplified.
How about 1 kubel, 1 sturmpio, 3 volks backed by 2 MG-42 and 3 grens?
I don't know what you're expecting by telling such fairy tales to rank 3 4v4 OKW player with +36 win streak.
Yeah, those things are going to do a lot of good against 8 rifle squads and 10 con squads, oh wait they aren't because the design of this game makes zero sense. Allies have the early game advantage, thing is, you need to be aggressive to take advantage of that strength and most players don't. |
It wouldn't have to defend itself at all if it was built in the base sector like all the other factions' buildings.
This would defeat the entire point of basing OKW around trucks.
Give it a freaking turreted HMG then, not a vehicle/infantry raping auto-cannon. It shouldn't be able to fend off nearly every Allied unit in the game. IMO, at the speed it comes out, should fend off infantry and do mild damage to medium vehicles. Ergo HMG (with AP selection?) Tanks should be able to take it relatively unscathed.
It already does just mild damage to mediums, it preforms very well against infantry and light vehicles. And a tank can kill it by itself, use a TD like the SU85 or Jackson. |
I think the vet 2 upgrade for Panzer IV is just fine, to be honest. It's not very hard to get it there and it picks up Blitz on the way. Moreover, do you really want more munitions sinks for Ostheer? I would rather not, as I find myself tight on munitions more than ever when playing Ostheer.
I disagree that StuG needs a massive buff, I feel it does just fine for its price. Remember, its price is comparable to M10, SU-76 and Puma. It's not worse than Puma and it's definetely far better than M10 or SU-76. You just need it in numbers; I've seen friends use them to great effect. The stun shot is a beast too!
SU-76 and M10 deserve attention first, and StuG is okay in my opinion, if not a staple unit. It's a cheap unit that can tackle armor in numbers, what's not to like? It's a T-34/76 tooled and priced for the job, combined with an ability that can actually help it tackle larger vehicles in numbers. Plus, the T-34/85 shift to T3 indirectly buffs it by giving it more medium armored things to shoot at, as you can bet IS-2 will be less common with a more accessible T-34/85 around.
However, I'm all for a buff to Ostwind. It's the red headed stepchild of Ostheer T3 and the only thing there that is truly underperforming. Against aircraft, it is great, but against infantry, it's not as cost effective as the OKW Flak Truck at all. I would not object to a suppression buff.
And Jagdpanther is easily one of the coolest tanks if not the coolest tank of WWII, so from a purely fanboy perspective I would like to see it in, but just how is probably topic for another thread. It doesn't have a place as a stock unit though, that's for sure. (Please don't discuss that here)
Overall I am surprised by how I just agreed with you on some points. You do bring up a few good points every now and then it seems. Unless you're just trolling the thread like the user "some one" did saying that Elefant should be cheaper and a stock unit to compensate for this change. Just being cautiously optimistic here. But if you aren't trolling, then I am glad to have convinced at least one person that T-34/85 being widely available is not only good for Soviets, but good for the game in general.
The Jadgpanther would need to be a commander unit for sure, but it wouldn't honestly be that out of place in T4. However the problem with the StuG is that it's just out shined by the PIV because they are both generalist, but the StuG has no turret. If Soviets get better non-tier units Ostheer would need to as well in order to not fuck with the balance even more.
The PIV having an armor upgrade (for fuel or MP instead of muni) would make it more viable when it comes out in the current Jackson heavy meta, the StuG having a defined role as an Anti Tank platform, and the Ostwind doing suppression like the other Flak vehicles would go a long way towards making T3 not a rare as it is now. |
1 well microed kubel.
Pure gren blobs armed with g43 work surprisingly well. Thing is, thanks to obers ultimate AI power its better to bring some mgs, mortars and use grens defensively, dumping all spare mp into caches.
1 well microed kubel isn't going to stop 5 con squads back up by 4 rifle squads, Allies having the early game advantage is pretty well documented. Honestly, it's stupid that each side has a distinct advantage at certain points in the game rather than all factions scaling equally over time.
Con spam and Rifle spam in 4's is very, very deadly. The advantage allies have in getting better infantry units out the door faster early game is amplified, then if you add in the Ostheers weakness to USF and OKW's poor early starting units it's quite easy to lock down most of the map as allies in the first 5-8 minutes. |
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1 AT gun can kill it, as can a SU85. It really isn't the biggest issue with OKW at the moment.
I mean, it's were all of OKW's most valuable units are built from, why should it be defenseless? |
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I'm fine with the t34/85 going into t3 as long as Ostheer gets the Jadgpanther. Also the StuG get's a massive buff to anti tank abilities, the additional armor on the PIV becoming an upgrade you can buy at any time like the Ausf J OKW has, and the Ostwind gets suppression.
That way both vanilla factions can get more effective units at T3! |
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If in 4's and 3's Axis's late game power is amplified, so is Allies early game power. Conspam and Riflespam early game can be extremely difficult to deal with for Axis due to the shear weight of so much infantry, not to mention the increased amount of indirect fire.
Ostheer get's pretty much reduced to a support faction due to the insane amounts of increased DPS. The 4 model squad problem becomes even more of an issue as the amount of indirect on the field greatly ramps up. |
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