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Let me flip the script on you.

Panther in t3. What does that do to the 34/76? You could use zis and to a lesser degree guards, but it makes building a t34 a waste of resources. Nothing wrong with the 85. It's just the timing thing. Buff the 76. I care not. But putting an 85 in t3 will lead to every ostheer player skipping t3. Put it in t4. That's fine... sort of. The regular mediums need a minute before the big mediums come out.

I think it's faction design. A few good units vs a mass of not quite so good units.

Are people really saying the t34/85 is similar to a panther and defending the existence of the t34? Which even more useless than a p4? Was there a patch i didn't hear about?

Refer to this quote, Glendizzle.

I wrote paragraphs upon paragraphs explaining why the T-34/85 is not a "big medium". It's not Panther tier. Panther is the only tank that is Panther tier. Being slightly better than Panzer IV while being worse in many ways doesn't make a tank "big medium". Panther in Ost T3 is pants on head insane and if you think the two are any bit comparable, you need a reality check.

T-34/85 won't make Panzer IV useless. If it would make it useless, it would already be doing it, more easily, being a CP10 unit instead of a T3 unit, an upgrade which costs resources. Hitting T3 doesn't magically give you the resources to build your tank, saving until CP10 does.

And it's horrible faction design. Soviets can't afford more tanks than Germans do. Speaking by cost, a matchup would be 5 T-34/76 vs 4 Panzer IV for the same price, except the T-34's cost more in MP combined and will get absolutely get creamed because they are so pathetic. Such a matchup never happens and German tanks are never outnumbered when you build units at a similar price range.

Buffing the 76 is replacing it with 85 as it is wrong that 85 is doctrinal in the first place. 85 is balanced against Panzer IV and in general. Also, saying that it would be okay at T4 really shows your experience with Soviets. I wanted to avoid personally attacking you, but you should know that Soviet T4 is not more expensive or available later than T3 and is already far, far superior. The difference is insane. Just like the difference between 85 and Panther is.

For the billionth time: T-34/85 should get its slightly better raw stats at a slightly higher cost compared to Panzer IV while Panzer IV gets far superior veterancy, an MG upgrade, and many other support including Panzer Tactician completely unavailable to Soviets with no analogue. Axis already has it better, and you want the status quo to remain as it is, which is to give Soviets an even worse main battle tank with zero gimmicks unless players pick a certain doctrine and avoid T3. Guess what happens? People play Guards Motor and skip T3, or go for IS-2 and skip mediums alltogether. Nobody bothers with 76 because its both weaker and with absolutely no proper support or gimmicks besides a gimped ram and horrible veterancy, and you have the nerve to say that's balanced while acting offended at the notion of being called an Axis warrior.

If you are okay with Soviets having both the worse stock medium multipurpose tank and the worse supporting abilities, Axis warrior is what you are. Now, until you read the earlier posts where I explained in detail to multiple people over multiple posts that "85 invalidates T3" is utter nonsense, I will not respond to you again. At this rate you're only repeating yourself and being an annoyance. If your Panzer IVs are made utterly useless by enemy 85's, the problem is between the screen and the chair. They have more than enough to go by with, unlike poor 76. I know this because I switched to Ostheer. Discussing with people who can't stand the thought of an Allied unit better than the Axis counterpart without requiring something like being confined to a few doctrines is tiring, and even people like you, who stress that they aren't Axis warriors, defend BS design so vehemently it is killing any mood I have to actually discuss. And then I get accused of flipping on anyone who disagrees with me, yet nobody wants to understand that it is NOT okay, for the billionth and tenth time, to give both the better tank related gimmicks and the raw stats to one side and give the other horrible units with negligible cost advantage. T-34/76 never outnumbers Panzer IV, and Panther is more than cost effective against it.

-Awesome big post with lots of great points to it-

I'm fine with the t34/85 going into t3 as long as Ostheer gets the Jadgpanther. Also the StuG get's a massive buff to anti tank abilities, the additional armor on the PIV becoming an upgrade you can buy at any time like the Ausf J OKW has, and the Ostwind gets suppression.

That way both vanilla factions can get more effective units at T3!

I'm fine with the t34/85 going into t3 as long as Ostheer gets the Jadgpanther. Also the StuG get's a massive buff to anti tank abilities, the additional armor on the PIV becoming an upgrade you can buy at any time like the Ausf J OKW has, and the Ostwind gets suppression.

That way both vanilla factions can get more effective units at T3!

I think the vet 2 upgrade for Panzer IV is just fine, to be honest. It's not very hard to get it there and it picks up Blitz on the way. Moreover, do you really want more munitions sinks for Ostheer? I would rather not, as I find myself tight on munitions more than ever when playing Ostheer.

I disagree that StuG needs a massive buff, I feel it does just fine for its price. Remember, its price is comparable to M10, SU-76 and Puma. It's not worse than Puma and it's definetely far better than M10 or SU-76. You just need it in numbers; I've seen friends use them to great effect. The stun shot is a beast too!

SU-76 and M10 deserve attention first, and StuG is okay in my opinion, if not a staple unit. It's a cheap unit that can tackle armor in numbers, what's not to like? It's a T-34/76 tooled and priced for the job, combined with an ability that can actually help it tackle larger vehicles in numbers. Plus, the T-34/85 shift to T3 indirectly buffs it by giving it more medium armored things to shoot at, as you can bet IS-2 will be less common with a more accessible T-34/85 around.

However, I'm all for a buff to Ostwind. It's the red headed stepchild of Ostheer T3 and the only thing there that is truly underperforming. Against aircraft, it is great, but against infantry, it's not as cost effective as the OKW Flak Truck at all. I would not object to a suppression buff.

And Jagdpanther is easily one of the coolest tanks if not the coolest tank of WWII, so from a purely fanboy perspective I would like to see it in, but just how is probably topic for another thread. It doesn't have a place as a stock unit though, that's for sure. (Please don't discuss that here)

Overall I am surprised by how I just agreed with you on some points. You do bring up a few good points every now and then it seems. Unless you're just trolling the thread like the user "some one" did saying that Elefant should be cheaper and a stock unit to compensate for this change. Just being cautiously optimistic here. But if you aren't trolling, then I am glad to have convinced at least one person that T-34/85 being widely available is not only good for Soviets, but good for the game in general.

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I think the vet 2 upgrade for Panzer IV is just fine, to be honest. It's not very hard to get it there and it picks up Blitz on the way. Moreover, do you really want more munitions sinks for Ostheer? I would rather not, as I find myself tight on munitions more than ever when playing Ostheer.

I disagree that StuG needs a massive buff, I feel it does just fine for its price. Remember, its price is comparable to M10, SU-76 and Puma. It's not worse than Puma and it's definetely far better than M10 or SU-76. You just need it in numbers; I've seen friends use them to great effect. The stun shot is a beast too!

SU-76 and M10 deserve attention first, and StuG is okay in my opinion, if not a staple unit. It's a cheap unit that can tackle armor in numbers, what's not to like? It's a T-34/76 tooled and priced for the job, combined with an ability that can actually help it tackle larger vehicles in numbers. Plus, the T-34/85 shift to T3 indirectly buffs it by giving it more medium armored things to shoot at, as you can bet IS-2 will be less common with a more accessible T-34/85 around.

However, I'm all for a buff to Ostwind. It's the red headed stepchild of Ostheer T3 and the only thing there that is truly underperforming. Against aircraft, it is great, but against infantry, it's not as cost effective as the OKW Flak Truck at all. I would not object to a suppression buff.

And Jagdpanther is easily one of the coolest tanks if not the coolest tank of WWII, so from a purely fanboy perspective I would like to see it in, but just how is probably topic for another thread. It doesn't have a place as a stock unit though, that's for sure. (Please don't discuss that here)

Overall I am surprised by how I just agreed with you on some points. You do bring up a few good points every now and then it seems. Unless you're just trolling the thread like the user "some one" did saying that Elefant should be cheaper and a stock unit to compensate for this change. Just being cautiously optimistic here. But if you aren't trolling, then I am glad to have convinced at least one person that T-34/85 being widely available is not only good for Soviets, but good for the game in general.

The Jadgpanther would need to be a commander unit for sure, but it wouldn't honestly be that out of place in T4. However the problem with the StuG is that it's just out shined by the PIV because they are both generalist, but the StuG has no turret. If Soviets get better non-tier units Ostheer would need to as well in order to not fuck with the balance even more.

The PIV having an armor upgrade (for fuel or MP instead of muni) would make it more viable when it comes out in the current Jackson heavy meta, the StuG having a defined role as an Anti Tank platform, and the Ostwind doing suppression like the other Flak vehicles would go a long way towards making T3 not a rare as it is now.

The Jadgpanther would need to be a commander unit for sure, but it wouldn't honestly be that out of place in T4. However the problem with the StuG is that it's just out shined by the PIV because they are both generalist, but the StuG has no turret. If Soviets get better non-tier units Ostheer would need to as well in order to not fuck with the balance even more.

The PIV having an armor upgrade (for fuel or MP instead of muni) would make it more viable when it comes out in the current Jackson heavy meta, the StuG having a defined role as an Anti Tank platform, and the Ostwind doing suppression like the other Flak vehicles would go a long way towards making T3 not a rare as it is now.

StuG is cheap. The cost difference is big enough to make it spammable more than Panzer IV. Give it a whirl, nothing but Soviet endgame vehicles can really deal with StuG spam, but nobody here would argue that the heavy tanks aren't overly centralizing themselves in the metagame. At T4 it clashes with the Panther. I would love to see it as a munitions-upgrade to the current Panther, unlocked via a commander.

I am all for buffing Ostwind and that's it. T-34/85 being stock doesn't make Panzer IV useless at all. It's not a nerf to it.

As for the Jackson-heavy meta, I think the problem with Jackson is that it has too much damage and too little penetration, both at Vet 0. This makes it outright bad against the Axis heaviyweights while making it too good against T3. If it were up to me I would give it its veteran penetration and give it 160 damage and then it would get 240 damage via vet.

This thread



I really appreciate your enthusiasm guys but let me remind you off all the tier changes & unit changes introduced until now, after thousands of posts since release:

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-Brummbär Target Weakpoint vet 1 ability changed to Bunker Busting Barrage.

As stated by relic, the soviets were designed as a hard counter faction that has doctrines to fill the gaps.
Giving soviets one of the best generalists tanks as a stock unit, is against their faction design.
This is why relic won't do and this is pointless. Think of this as an RTS, which has unique factions and the background is loosely based on WW2.

Op you are not the first one who suggested this and you won't be the last one, but it will never happen, deal with it. Such could've been only possible during alpha or beta phases of the game, but except for changes that involve some stat changes on units you won't see groundbreaking changes.

T-34/76's existence says otherwise. It's unusably bad and T-34/85 would be balanced in its place. I an tired of hearing that Soviets are meant to use doctrinal call ins. If Relic really said that, they shouldn't be simultenously making so many Soviet commanders with no such callins whatsoever. Even if it is their design, it is made obvious by now by many players that it is a bad one. Time to admit mistakes and move on. This simple change would fix everything.

I know I am beating my head against the wall here, but I don't think such a change is impossible if it gets enough support. If you want to help me, join the discussion. I don't truly expect to achieve anything, but I want to think of ways to improve my favourite game and spend time discussing them and trying to convince others until I no longer care enough to ignore that Relic doesn't care and the fact that they haven't done this until now means they are clueless at designing factions that are meant to interact with eachother.

After a long... period of Sovietplay I say that the T-34/76 is in a good place. I think its good as it is. It would be nice though if I could go both T3 and T4 in the same game. Making the T85 a stock unit would make sovietplayers go conspam to 85spam. Boooring!!

So no to nr 1.
And yes to nr 2.

Are you saying that doesn't already happen, and with the same doctrines nevertheless? Advanced Warfare is built upon the concept of doing just that. What's fine about 76? What can it do? It is a worse unit than Panzer IV in every way. It has worse stats, it's not as cost effective, it's not much cheaper, it has worse veterancy, it has worse everything. How can you even defend this unit's existence? Please, make an attempt. I want to know what I'M not seeing in the hidden gem that is 76, because it has been an utter disappointment to everyone I've ever seen use them.

Not to mention it's a 1942 tank facing 1944 tanks when it should have been replaced by the 85. 85 gets better stats, Panzer IV is cheaper and gets the gimmicks. That's balance. What we have right now with 76 is not balance. It's a fuel trap for the ignorant. 85 is available in select few doctrines and it is cheaper than the utterly useless 76 and also more accessible and allowing of cheese tactics because it's doctrinal. Why do you support of this bad design!?

What's fine about 76? What can it do? It is a worse unit than Panzer IV in every way. It has worse stats, it's not as cost effective, it's not much cheaper, it has worse veterancy, it has worse everything. How can you even defend this unit's existence? Please, make an attempt. I want to know what I'M not seeing in the hidden gem that is 76, because it has been an utter disappointment to everyone I've ever seen use them.

It can crush. Thats how I use it against okwblobs. I am not sure that the t-34/85 are as good as the 76s at crushing? If you compare it to a p4 it also comes out ealier, its cheaper and faster(?). But comparing units vs units isnt the best. In actual gameplay it is good at keeping up the early advantage you hopefully have. You can stall or gain advantage with it before you call-in the big guns.

It can crush. Thats how I use it against okwblobs. I am not sure that the t-34/85 are as good as the 76s at crushing? If you compare it to a p4 it also comes out ealier, its cheaper and faster(?). But comparing units vs units isnt the best. In actual gameplay it is good at keeping up the early advantage you hopefully have. You can stall or gain advantage with it before you call-in the big guns.

It's not faster. It doesn't come at a cheaper tech cost, it's more expensive on that front. It costs as much as big guns. 2 of them cost almost as much as a Tiger and aren't at half the relevance.

And crush? Every tank has crush. Panzer IV crushes better because of its smoke. And M10 is the best crusher in the game, is it suddenly not the worst tracked vehicle in the game? Yes it is. It's the worst of the worst and it makes T-34 look good.

Bump. Guys, we needn't only talk about T-34/85. This thread is also about OKW's salvage system as well as how they gain resources from caches and unpenalized resources from the airdrop.