Suggestions like these have been floating about a lot, I've made some myself. That being said:
Schrecks on mainline infantry right now are a gameplay, not a balance problem. It makes for some lame mechanics, but its not actually an issue on the competitive plane in my opinion.
Right now there is no other viable squad to give Schrecks to. Schrecks on Sturms or Obers is frankly an absurd suggestion. Obers are already situational as is, come out of T4, and are absolutely needed to do the heavy lifting in the AI department for OKW in the lategame. Sturms are already needed for sweeping and repairs, changing them to an auxiliary AT role in addition to that would overtax them. I think the Op is correct when he says that a change like this would require an additional, dedicated AT squad to be created from scratch.
Just a few random remarks.
-Mp 40s are a downgrade and would be a totally unattractive choice. Have you guys ever tried using assgrens past the 5 minute mark?
-Kiting Schrecks with medium tanks is definetly possible. Heck, its doable with light tanks, within reason.
Could buff the MP40s so they're more useable at short-medium range They are very situational weapons but the option is always there where they will outperform Kars. Usually, assgrens have trouble in the sense that they have to make ground before their MP40s have any effect which means they would tend to lose a few models and a lot of their theoretical DPM as a result. But with a creative use of Truesight, it definitely could have some utility.
Make the volk's combat package (schrecks) available after you purchase an upgrade from the med hq for 250 mp & 20 fuel (kind of like soviet AT package), then make the combat package (schrecks) itself cost 100 muni instead of 90 muni. It would make the OKW have to invest more into their schreck blobs of doom, instead of getting rid of it entirely.
Considering the light vehicle meta that the Allies tend to use, this would mean that it would be ages till you will get schreks and infantry will get run over by all manners of T70s and Light vehicles, I don't think that is an option.
Volk blobs of doom tends to be a problem in the endgame, not early or early-midgame.
Dont know why we can't be historical & aesthetic. While also balanced.
As long as light skinned vehicles are used by armies, AT-rifles can always serve some purpose.
Hell even the Soviets used AT rifles when fighting the Japs and those were quite devastating. |
Ya 1945 we still have germans using AT rifles. Sorry but no.
I'm pretty sure when it comes to any army in general, esp late war Germany, it'll come down to using whatever's in your arsenal rather than what everyone would love to use |
Soviets don't have "Hard AT infantry". And a lot worse options than OKW in the destroyer department. And OKW have the cheapest, earliest, AT gun in the game.
Well, yes, but OKW doesn't have any non-doc soft AT either. In any case, no AT ability or weapon in the game is locked behind vet.
Not to mention the sovies have an ability which lets them sprint and destroy tank engines at will provided they do a bit of damage.
1. Sure so now you have to upgrade them to make them useless to fight in range combats, so you just give free vet to all allied infantry that fight on range.
2. Okay volks get faust and the Raketens range doesn't let you kill the vehicle then.
3. Lel no.
Please elaborate its not helpful to have posts like this which doesn't have any reasoning behind it. And point 3 fixes 1 and 2, so I don't see the problem. If you don't have change 3, then there would be a problem with 1 and 2, but with change 3, there wouldn't be that kind of problem.
Upgrading with MP40s is situational and something that shouldn't be done on a map which is very open like say Red Ball Express but its better on maps like say Semois. |
Giving them another AT unit is just gonna be a copy and paste from Ostheer. Just leave the Volks alone. The OBK design doesn't really even make much sense.
Shrecks either need to be nerfed, cost increased or Volks need better options. There's a reason why you don't see a blob of Rifle zooks.
Okay what we do agree on is the following.
1. OKW design from initial release is FUBAR. ATM, all traces of the old OKW design was lost when they "reworked" it. I personally hate how it was reworked.
2. Yes the OKW redesign makes so little sense so that it works more or less like an Ostheer with trucks (but better baseline infantry when it comes to OKW). What I'm trying to do is not fix OKW back into what it should have been designed as but try to work with it as it stands.
But as for the rest of the post.
1. Pzgrens are NOT strictly AT units. They have a option for very good close quarters AI or for all intents and purposes an AT squad. Pzjager squads as I propose them do not behave like this, they are strictly an AT squad which can be upgraded with Schrecks which behaves as a penn increase, but reduces DPM and accuracy.
2. I'm perfectly fine with the Shreck as it is in the game. What I'm not fine with is Volks being able to carry it.
3. 90 muni for a hard AT weapon is already pricey as it is. Don't think the right balance here would be cost increase.
4. Rifle zook blobs don't happen because unlike OKW Rifles once they hit vet one actually do have soft AT that no non-doc unit with OKW has. |
If you get rid of shreks on volks the whole faction is gonna get fucked like ostheer is right now
Thats why I suggested a panzerjager squad that comes with double AT rifles that can be upgraded to double shreck in the Med truck.
Why this?
1. Because with this change, it makes a difference between light and medium armour for allies unlike now.
2. It potentially gives a specialised squad more AT DPM
3. It can defensively hard counter light vehicles even better than the volks can right now.
4. Volk shreck blobs won't a thing
5. It provides OKW with a hard AT unit and a specialised one at that.
I get that Volk shreck helps them, but what could help as well is an equally priced unit that has better AT abilities than the Volk, but far weaker AI than the volk. |
Why not let Obergrenadiers carry streck? 2 streck purchase with 120 ammo as usual.
As volk, for early defense, I suggest that they could upgrade MP40+Incendiary nade as OP say, or 2 Panzerpunsche+At grenade.
Obers with their 400 MP cost would be not only unattractive as shreck carriers but also prohibitive as well with the infantry heavy gameplay that OKW has.
I think Volks as they stand without shrecks are an early defence form, maybe with AT nade as well. With MP40, they can't defend well except if enemies try to get into their face. |
+1 great suggestion. I have been suggesting this for a while now.
Give volks stgs/mp40 faust upgrade when 2 trucks are down is my suggestion. So either mech + medic unlocks it. Or medic + schwerer.
A few problems with this:
1. Can't be STG upgrade, otherwise that will pretty much outmatch sturmpios
2. Any AI only has utility at the earlygame. So 2 trucks would be too much, 1 truck is okay. Besides, MP40 is a very situational weapon where its good close range but really bad at long range, unlike STGs which are passable at any range but really good long range. Forcing players to make strategical decisions like this is perfectly fine in the earlygame IMO
3. OKW needs soft AT a lot sooner than 2 trucks. |
no just make shreck unlock on vet 3 squads so we can keep they number at bay
This pretty much gives OKW no Infantry hard AT, which is not an option, no other weapon in the game is locked behind vet. |
So everyone's a bit tired of how Volks are just a generalist Pzshreck squad right?
One thing that could be done is to improve Volk AI performance while getting rid of their AT performance. So instead of a Pzshreck upgrade, you end up with a MP40 upgrade, very similar to CoH1. For AT, they can get a Pzfaust that can't be deployed until you get a converted truck. Volks with Kars should also have far weaker performance than Grens with Kars too, but it should be strong enough to ward off any attacking baseline inf - ie the Kars should be used as a long range agressive infantry deterrent.
However, OKW would still need some form of hard infantry AT. Maybe a solution to this is to put a Panzerjager 4-man squad which is armed with double shrecks in T2 (or Med truck tier), possibly costing around 250 - 290 MP and the other 2 members are armed with Kars. These shrecks can be replenished if dropped for a cost of muni. This could replace the map-hack HT in the med truck.
These proposed changes do a few things
1. Fix lel skill volk blobs.
2. Allow Volks to actually have some utility in the way that they do in VCoH
3. Forces the player to make a strategic decision - do I expect long range engagements like say on Langres
4. Adds to the theme of specialisation
5. Actually give Med Truck some AT abilities. Notice how in the past, all HTs come with having specialised AI and AT units that can deploy, but ever since the rework, Med Truck lacks this.
6. Get rid of gimmicky and unnecessary maphack HT.
Now you could say that with these changes that OKW would play more like Ostheer and you wouldn't be wrong, however considering what Relic decided to do with OKW and the way that they overhauled it, OKW has long lost the theme of a late war machine that lacks in fuel and muni and often has to make the choice between them. So now, all you can do is balance OKW so that you can make its units a bit more specialist while getting rid of excesses like volk pzshreck blobs.
EDIT: I'm all up for Pzjager squads to start off with AT rifles with higher DPM but lower penn that can be upgraded to pzschrecks. Because really when it comes to light vehicles, considering most of Axis AT abilities are high penn, it kind of in a way makes armour meaningless in the sense that it'll always penn everything except the heaviest of vehicles so armour doesn't really matter.
TLDR: Changes proposed:
1. Volks to get MP40 upgrade instead of Shreck
2. Volks to get faust
3. Panzerjager squad to replace Maphack truck, can come initially with AT rifles that can be upgraded to shrecks. |
I think many of the comments on here are missing the point of the real change in OKW.
OKW was a faction originally designed as late war western front units...units that were mixed veterancy and quality, mostly green with some absolutely bad ass units mixed in. It was also based on the idea that fuel and munitions were at a premium and big shortages existed. That's why I liked the faction. It did a nice job of being "different" from the others while trying to stay true to the late war situation the Germans faced. Fuel or munitions transfer helped to translate this real life problem into gameplay and made for interesting strategic decisions.
NOW, it just feels like any other faction. Is it more balanced? Yeah sure it is. Could Relic have maybe found a way to balance it without going away from its original design? Yeah, I think they could have.
+1 exactly my thoughts, I actually liked the faction and just thought a few things needed buffs and OKW was all good again. |