Pak40 is balanced verse SOV.
Pak40 is unbalanced verse USF for the reasons including:
- It kills a Stuart tank in 2 shots and forces the Stuart to be used extremely cautiously otherwise you lose a major fuel investment. It is incredibly easy to kill the Stuart on the majority of 1v1 maps as Ostheer if you listen in the fog of war and have a sense of timing. If the Stuart is within a certain position of the Pak40, even at full health it will die unless the pak40 misses (rare).
- USF can only win the infantry MP war currently through good vehicle play due to weakness of Rifles transitioning in the mid/late game. The pak40 can completely shut this down on the majority of 1v1 maps and you end up losing both the infantry and armour wars as USF purely from LMG grens/pak40 and maybe one P4.
My balance suggestion would not be to nerf the pak40 at all but buff other USF units to compensate as otherwise you will effect the Soviet match up. Suggested changes include:
- Buff Stuart health so that it can withstand 2 Pak40 shots. 2 Pak40 shots + panzerfaust should result in a kill though.
- Buff BAR upgrades so LMG grens can actually be countered without armour or burning through munitions on smoke/pineapple grenades at every single engagement.
At the moment I believe OST is incredibly easy to play verse USF once you handle the early AAHT/M20 from them on the majority of maps. LMG gren, pak40 and P4 is all you need. The suggested changes will also permit USF to actually use T3 verse OST opposed to having to go T2 every single game! I am sick and tired of the USF meta where only 1 stratergy is viable on the majority of maps. Boring.
How do the issues you describe with USF not apply to sov as well? because they have access to heavy tanks? |
Because thats how the current meta works. Soviets forego teching and wait till they have access to 85,is2 or kv1's. This gives them a rather huge mp and fuel advantage.
Simply put teching up to tier 3 or 4 as ostheer is suicidal. even if you get tanks out they will be of significant lower quality in the case of tier 3. p4 vs 85 is a lopsided affair in favour for the 85. in the case of tier 4 your panther will be outnumbered 3 to 1.
Now the allies on the other hand can tech up and get some very good TD's in form of the su85 and jackson not to mention their medium tank callins are nearly as powerful their td's.
They still have to wait to get enough CP to be able to call them in. I can't just not build tanks until I get heavies because of the CP gate. I'll have to get tier 3 or 4 to survive until I can get heavies. You'll have P4s way before I can call in 85s. You say Jacksons are the best tank destroyers in the game, and yet a pak40 does more dps. 85s while having a good amount of armor and health, are not as powerful as TDs in terms of damage output and penetration against armor.
Also, I'm not really sure why people are saying the raketten is bad, it does more DPS than a Zis. |
Because you are wrong and not a little bit 2. Of all the non doctrinal units the ostheer has the only ones capable of dealing with the soviet heavy armour before reach the panther is the pak and only the pak. nerfing it would completely undermine the ostheer ability to counter soviet callin heavies effectively.,
if the pak was in the okw i would agree with you. as the okw is loaded up to its gills with dedicated tank destroyers and a panther thats much easier to buy then the ost panther.
And how is a soviet player fielding a heavy before you can field a panther? who said anything about making paks completely ineffective against soviet heavies? They are already more effective against tanks than a SU-85. Maybe it should be harder to beat a soviet heavy than just fielding one pak40, similar to how soviets need more than just a zis to beat an axis heavy. |
Here are stats to put things in perspective
Damage statistics
Pak40 - 40-32 dps / 210-190 pen
ZIS3 - 27-22 dps / 200-180 pen
R43 - 31-26 dps /200-180 pen
57MM - 37-22 dps /140-115 pen
To put these numbers in perspective the KT does 38Dps, the Jackson does 33 dps the panther does 21 dps
The paks damage numbers are really high, i think nerfing the reload a little but perhaps increasing penetration would make it a little more specialized and less well...better in every way. It should be a step up from the zis, but to make it basically do 50% more damage against tanks that will always be penetrated aside from doctrines is a bit much
This right here, the pak does way too much damage for a faction that already has better armor than the allies.
Just because you suck at something doesn't mean you have to bring everybody else down with you. Same thing here with the Pak40, just because this units is good no need to nerf it and make it useless. Instead buff the rest and bring them to the same level of performance.
Also lets not forget that in general allies tanks have less HP/Armor than the axis tanks. So when that pak hits it might look that is doing more dmg than it should be.
Off topic:
People complaining this days for everything... bugs are one thing but now thread after thread on "This is OP". I won't be surprise if someone complains about base mg's too, that's the only thing left no one complaint about yet.
Why does the pak40 need to do almost double the DPS against tanks than other AT weapons? It's not just about it's performance specifically, but it's performance within the faction. Axis, already have great armor, and panzerschreks, why does the pak40 need to also be twice as effective as other AT guns?
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The problem here is that you make the T34 commanders kind of pointless. They should just re-work the teching system. I don't think the design of having to pick between T3 and T4 is a good one, it's too limiting. They should make T3 contain all the light tanks and make it so you need at least two tiers built to make T4, similar to USF.
With the exception of ram, the T34 is in a good spot. What hurts the T34 more than anything is the fact that soviet AT is so good, it makes it really hard to take advantage of it's supposed strength, which is flanking. |
Hi all been reading a lot of suggestions on the soviet Tier system, came up with my own opinion, don't seem to find a similar post so I though would share it.
Start by making soviet T4 similar to US T4 with TD and medium tank in same Tier so T34/76 changes with SU-76 making T3 all about Light vehicles, obvious cost readjustment of Tier 3 and 4 is required.
This would give the soviet light vehicles a bit more spotlight make it so they cant be built any sooner than a US Halftrack otherwise it would just be completely OP.
So soviet early tech system would remain the same T1 or T2 but after building one Tier you would unlock T3 after Building 2 Tiers you would unlock T4 so you could go T1 and T2 into T4 or get T1 and tech to light vehicles, T-70 spotting for SU-76 could prove difficult for a puma to handle, or just a cheap Halftrack for reinforcement.
I suppose there is the danger of light vehicle spam into call in, like a bunch of quick T-70 and wait for whatever Heavy tank you can call in
So what you guys think? Are there many obvious flaws with these suggestions that I just cant see or what?
I think this is a pretty good idea. It still allows you to make a tech choice and go straight to the big stuff while giving you some more flexibility with light vehicles. Now we'd just need to come up with the cost adjustments. How much should T3 and T4 cost in this scenario? 60/90? |
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Hey Tensai,
I have another question. For the PTRS rifle, how are you calculating the DPS there? I was looking at the spreadsheet and it seems that using the numbers there, I get a different value for DPS than when looking at the graph. Also, on the site it lists near and mid range as -1, but the spreadsheet has values for near and mid range.
The way I was doing it using the spreadsheet was looking at the column "Total time including reload", which was 28.85, then doing 1/28.85 * ( the damage of ptrs, 40). Then I multiplied it again by 6, which is the number of shots fired before reload. I get a much lower number than what is shown on the graph. Where am I making a mistake? Thanks! |
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Hey Tensai,
I just noticed that I cannot find the stats for the 222 armored car cannon upgrade. It's not listed in the weapons for the 222. Just wanted to make you aware of that. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place. |
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Hey TensaOni,
I don't see where I can view the values for received accuracy. Also, I don't see where you can see values for distance mid. Thanks for you time and your work on this site! |
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