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I've been doing quite a bit of testing with JLI using cheatcommands today just to see how effective they are.
I've been testing them at close, medium and long range against all the basic allied infantry units, both in negative cover, light color and heavy cover and with and without their G43 upgrade.
They perform well against all squads, even without their G43 upgrade, but giving them the G43 sniper makes them win every single time against every single allied squad on equal terms at all ranges, with the sole exception being allied units at close range. However, that's not a realistic scenario because you're going to have to move towards them to get into close range and take quite a bit of damage in the process.
The only time in which allied infantry have the advantage are when both squads are in negative cover, and even then Jaegers can still win sometimes with RNG, but they almost always lose to infantry sections. They fare better vs. Riflemen and Conscripts in negative cover but still lose, but often take down the allied squads to 1 man while doing so.
In green cover it's a completely different story. Jaegers, even when the opposing allied unit is in green cover win every single time, especially when you give them the G43. Even at close ranges Jaegers are overperforming vs. all allied infantry I tested when both are in green cover. Routinely jaegers can completely wipe a squad without even losing a single man, especially vs. conscripts and riflemen.
There's several things that bother me about Jaegers:
1) Their price is too cheap in a faction that already boasts a great manpower float and cheap infantry (volksgrenadiers)
2) Because of their price and effectiveness, making them an infiltration unit on top of that makes them even more potent.
3) Their ambush damage makes quick work of any allied squads that happen to walk into it.
4) Abilities like sprint just make them even more mobile and damaging.
5) The G43 upgrade is cheap (45 ammo) and can be upgraded anywhere on the map. Why is it that almost all German weapon upgrades don't even require you be in your own territory? Meanwhile, Riflemen have to retreat back to your base just to get a BAR.
I suggest that they make their ambush damage come with veterancy instead of default, and maybe even move the camouflage to vet 2 or something. Their price needs an increase back to at least 290+ manpower, similar to pathfinders.
Stat-wise, I'm not sure that they would need a major nerf if they were increased in price. They would become much less prevalent if they were more expensive, as they were before their massive buff. Right now, I routinely see OKW players in team games simply skip volksgrenadiers alltogether and wait for their Jaegers, and get 4 squads because of how cheap they are, and how little time it takes for them to cooldown to spawn another.
They are especially strong against factions like USF that struggle to maintain a manpower balance since Riflemen are so expensive and underperforming until you get BARs. |
Gettin an early Stuka opens one up for some brutal quick medium/pre-timely heavy tank rape
Not at all. You can get a stuka out in 8minutes and it will immediately influence the game by wiping squads / buildings, especially soviet T2. Combined with the nearly free IR halftrack it's incredibly potent early in the game when things are still contested.
I just had an early stuka wipe a penal and commisar in its first barrage very early into a team game. It happens nearly every single team game I play, in fact not seeing an ~8minute stuka is very rare in my experience playing 3v3s and 4v4s.
In fact, even just holding one fuel point an axis team can easily field a stuka with the med truck built too at the 10 minute mark. I've done this multiple times playing OKW in 4v4 and it's very easy to pull off, and nearly impossible to counter if you simply just get a raketen to hold off any armor, and move the stuka back to your base when it's in cooldown. |
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I wish that Stuka had some higher requirements to field, so that it can't come out so early. Having three trucks built, similar to the conditions for the KT would at least delay its tech further and bring it in line with other SP arty like Katyushas / Panzerwerfers. It should be considered a late game unit, right now it only requires a minimum of 15+45+100 (15 for truck, 45 for mechanized, 100 for stuka) (160) fuel assuming you ignore Battlegroup and go straight for a Mechanized regiment. Hell, even if you get out a puma, or a luchs you will still get it out much earlier than any allied player that invests nothing in light or medium armor would get a similar unit out.
Hell, just requiring two trucks for the stuka to be build would help tremendously with how early they come out in team games.
Compare it to much less potent arty like the Katyusha / Panzerwerfer, which require 10+85+90+85 (270) fuel minimum for katyusha, and 10+40+90+25+25+85 (275) for Panzerwerfer.
It's just insane to me that the most potent SPA in the game can be called out within the first 15-20 minutes of the game if the axis team is playing well enough, which they usually are. |
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They used to be 300mp. I don't understand why the price was discounted by a further 50mp. They were already a decent unit even before the buff, and now they're just absolutely broken in team games. Groups of 3+ Jaegers can be seen wiping MGs in a matter of seconds, and wiping basically any retreating unit near them due to the insane crit damage they do. Basically, if you see a group of Jaegers and you're outmanned you have no choice but to retreat right now or risk wiping a squad even if it was near full HP at the time of engagement. |
They come way to early for their Performance. Its like u could build obers at 3 min mark...
By this logic, Sturmpioneers come "way too early for their performance."
Also, Penals aren't really comparable to obers. God forbid Soviet have a decent infantry unit, right? |
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They really need a price increase, or some modification to their stats so they aren't so powerful right now. An increase in the cooldown time to spawn them should also be considered.
I think 250mp is far too cheap considering how they're performing right now too, OKW isn't exactly a faction that struggles with manpower so for them to have another very cheap, powerful squad makes it hard to not pick this commander right now.
Just the fact that they're an infiltration unit too makes them incredibly annoying and prone to abuse, especially with the relatively low cooldown time.
Does anyone know how stat-wise they compare to Pathfinders and I&R Pathfinders? I watched the test videos earlier in the thread but I'd be curious to see how they compare to I&R Pathfinders, a similarly priced unit. Maybe I'll go do that myself actually just to see how they compare.
Regardless, they are definitely an issue right now and it should be addressed. |
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I hardly ever post here or whine about balance, but holy shit. This has to be one of the most imbalanced abilities I've encountered in my entire nearly 5 years playing CoH2.
It's just baffling to me that this got past playtesting. Did people just not test to see if this ability was broken or not?
First off, the duration. It's WAY too long, especially since this isn't something that can be countered with AA or w/e, at least not in my experience. It lasts damn near 3 minutes of 3 bomb strikes that obliterate full health squads and vehicles, it's like multiple stuka nukes going off at the same time and it's incredibly hard to dodge because of the size of the radius.
Second, it routinely strikes targets THROUGH THE FOG OF WAR and BEYOND THE RADIUS even after the recon plane has passed. Just now, I had two shermans wiped that were well outside of the radius, like at least 30m beyond it and they still got hit by the bomb strikes that were targetting a vehicle that was barely inside it, and keep in mind this was also through the fog of war, no enemy units had sight on my tanks.
Every single match it's being abused over and over again and playing allies in team games right now is suffering because of it. You see it every single match, and much like anything that's broken, the players will abuse it until it's fixed.
As for some solutions so I'm not just whining about it:
1) The timing of this needs to be reduced. It should only do one single bomb strike, and the strike itself needs some serious damage reduction, combined with a price reduction. The timing from the moment the ability is activated to when the bombs drop needs to be nerfed a few seconds too, it happens way too fast and players really don't have time to react. Right now it's like a boatload of stuka bombs going off at the same time, multiple times in a row.
2) Maybe make it the planes that drop the bombs vulnerable to AA too?
Let me add this too. The soviet Commisar anti tank arty also needs to be adjusted, though it's far less of an issue than this is right now. Both of those abilities by themselves are determining the outcome of games alone.
Honestly though, this has to be the best commander in the game right now because of how broken it is. Not only do you get a 10Cp ability that is incredibly effective, but you have goliaths, LefHs, and a spammable light infiltration infantry squad. Can't really ask for more than that. For the Fatherland too, it's not broken but it's a solid ability to buff your units during an assault. |
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Does anyone else think that they need to revert this squad to spawning as a 4 or 5 man full health squad from the start? Right now, they're basically just a commando squad that you can call into any building, or from off map, the issue I have with them is that they spawn with only three men.
If I remember, Relic changed it from a 4 man squad to a 5 man squad, but at the same time limited them to spawning with only 3/5 men in the squad, and reduced the price. Right now they're 340 manpower to spawn a 3 man squad. I believe that they should just bump up the cost to 390 and let us spawn them as a 5 man unit like most other infiltration units that spawn with full health. Regular commandos cost 390 so they would be the same price.
No one complains about Fallschirmjagers or Partisans spawning as a full health 4 man squad, what people complained about were infiltration units spawning with the grenade ability not on a cooldown. That was fixed, you can't use grenades right after you spawn infiltration units anymore, but it doesn't make sense to have this handicap on infiltration commandos.
Most of the time I don't even spawn them in buildings because they're simply too weak at 3 men when they spawn resulting in you having to immediately retreat if there's more than 1 squad opposing them in the vicinity. It's just ridiculous that I often just spawn them at my base and immediately have to spend an additional 70mp just to re-enforce them, in addition when you spawn them from an ambient building you're going to have to retreat them to your FHQ or back to base just to get them to their proper squad size wasting a lot of time doing so.
So my suggestion is to just bump up the price to ~390mp like the regular commandos and simply have them spawn as a 5 man squad, or simply revert them to what they were before, a 4 man commando unit and have them spawn full health. It simply doesn't make sense that only infiltration commandos have this weird penalty while no other infiltration units are affected this way. After all, as I said above, it was grenades being the main issue before. |
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Relic's proirities:
1) Pumping out pointless, 0-effort vehicle skins
2) ???
9001) Fixing the large amount of persistent bugs, power creep and other balance issues in the game |
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I'm not sure about the garrison claim that they don't get the accuracy buff, I haven't played with them enough to notice it, but their damage is already so negligible that it's very hard to tell if they are doing better in buildings or not.
Like I said though, it's a minor gripe, and it depends on your playstyle. I've just found it's a minor annoyance that it's locked behind getting a building up instead of through teching alone like most other upgrades, even if the cost is negligible. |
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Relic Entertainment
