Is it me but look at Panther and Pak40
Panther: 260/240/220. And thats it, no vet no special ammo
Pak40: 210/200/190, at Vet3: 273/260/247. AP ammo i give you that, it pens all Allies tanks BUT take too long loading and can fire 1 shot for 160 damage only.
Say we take their mid values of 240 and 200/260. This is fair average encounter.
They are up against Allies front/side values
Churchill Croc/AVRE : 290
Churchill : 240
Comet: 290
Pershing: 270
IS2: 375
ISU152: 340
KV1: 270
KV2: 300
KV8: 260
Wehr weak penetration
- This thread is locked
15 Oct 2019, 14:51 PM
#1
Posts: 1794
15 Oct 2019, 14:59 PM
#2
Posts: 1794
Compare to Allies 60TD
FF: 260/240/210/Tulips/240 damages/0.55 moving accuracy
SU85: 240/230/220, vet to 312/299/286 with free self-spottting
Jackson: 260/240/220, vet to 338/312/286 and the best AP ammo 300/280/250 and vet 390/364/325. 0.75 moving accuracy!
They goes up against Brumar, Panther and Tiger..
Brumbar front/side armor 240, vet 288
Panther front/side armor 260, vet 286
Tiger front/side armor: 300
Hmmm
FF: 260/240/210/Tulips/240 damages/0.55 moving accuracy
SU85: 240/230/220, vet to 312/299/286 with free self-spottting
Jackson: 260/240/220, vet to 338/312/286 and the best AP ammo 300/280/250 and vet 390/364/325. 0.75 moving accuracy!
They goes up against Brumar, Panther and Tiger..
Brumbar front/side armor 240, vet 288
Panther front/side armor 260, vet 286
Tiger front/side armor: 300
Hmmm
15 Oct 2019, 15:12 PM
#3
Posts: 88
Penetration values mean a chance to pen, not able to pen or not. So, they can still pen. Why are we making a problem out of this when there is no current problem in this area? All is fine lol...
15 Oct 2019, 15:12 PM
#4
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
IS2 is really the only Allied tank that Panthers and Pak40s struggle to penetrate so what is your point? I agree about the Jackson and SU 85 vet penetration bonus. It should go so all 3 TDs (FF, Jackson and SU 85) have the same penetration. Jackson can keep HVAP as an ability that increases pen and damage and reduces reload. FF can keep the Tulips to compensate for bad reload and mobility and SU 85 can keep the vision ability to compensate for not having a turret.
15 Oct 2019, 15:24 PM
#5
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Their penetration is fine, no idea what you're talking about
15 Oct 2019, 15:29 PM
#6
Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1
Is it me but look at Panther and Pak40
Panther: 260/240/220. And thats it, no vet no special ammo
Pak40: 210/200/190, at Vet3: 273/260/247. AP ammo i give you that, it pens all Allies tanks BUT take too long loading and can fire 1 shot for 160 damage only.
Say we take their mid values of 240 and 200/260. This is fair average encounter.
They are up against Allies front/side values
Churchill Croc/AVRE : 290
Churchill : 240
Comet: 290
Pershing: 270
IS2: 375
ISU152: 340
KV1: 270
KV2: 300
KV8: 260
The pak have exactly same pen like a 6 pdr , both stock and vet 3, but 6pdr not have AP round, so allies have no advantage in AT gun.
For all the allies heavy you listed, only churchill and comet is stock but Pak40 have a fair chane to pen it frontally and comet cant solo panther, others is doctrinal and for doctrinal unit, you have doctrinal counter, aka pak43 and ele.
What is the pont ?
15 Oct 2019, 15:29 PM
#7
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
Ostheer isn't the only axis faction. Allied AT pieces must also pen the KT (375) and Elephant (400). Also JT but I forget the new armor value it has.
15 Oct 2019, 15:39 PM
#8
Posts: 5279
I agree. Ost should have all their pen values moved to the OP levels of the panther invalidating AEC. It's only fair given the price of many Ost vehicles
#stalinwept
15 Oct 2019, 17:02 PM
#9
Posts: 1794
Their penetration is fine, no idea what you're talking about
It is not fine because they get outranged and outburned.
Where is the superior axis armor?
Heck Panther turret rotation quality is worse than Churchill until it gets vet3.
15 Oct 2019, 17:10 PM
#10
Posts: 129
It is not fine because they get outranged and outburned.
Where is the superior axis armor?
Heck Panther turret rotation quality is worse than Churchill until it gets vet3.
Unless your panther is getting circle strafed by a friggin t-70, turret rotation isnt an issue.
15 Oct 2019, 17:16 PM
#11
Posts: 1794
Yes it is, for a tank that has "high" armor hp and used to dive in and out.
You could be chasing a T70 and if you want to switch target because T70 outran you.
Little things add up but forgotton.
You could be chasing a T70 and if you want to switch target because T70 outran you.
Little things add up but forgotton.
15 Oct 2019, 17:25 PM
#12
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Where is the superior axis armor?
Available stock to OKW...
Also JT but I forget the new armor value it has.
450 I believe
15 Oct 2019, 17:29 PM
#13
Posts: 129
Yes it is, for a tank that has "high" armor hp and used to dive in and out.
You could be chasing a T70 and if you want to switch target because T70 outran you.
Little things add up but forgotton.
Oh no the SU 85 got a shot off because the panther was distracted. It's not like every tank above a stuart has that problem,and that it's a conscious design decision that also relates to how tanks actually work, and how when fighting larger numbers you take disproportionate losses.
15 Oct 2019, 17:56 PM
#14
Posts: 4474
Compare to Allies 60TDfixed
FF: 260/240/210/Tulips/240 damages/0.55 moving accuracy
SU85: 240/230/220, vet to 312/299/286 with free self-spottting
Jackson: 260/240/220, vet to 338/312/286 and the best AP ammo 300/280/250 and vet 390/364/325. 0.75 moving accuracy!
They goes up against Brumar, Panther and Tiger..
Brumbar front/side armor 260, vet 338 it actually is 240 and vet 288 was nerfed recently
Panther front/side armor 260, vet 286
Tiger front/side armor: 300
Hmmm
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
15 Oct 2019, 17:57 PM
#15
Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1
It is not fine because they get outranged and outburned.
Where is the superior axis armor?
Heck Panther turret rotation quality is worse than Churchill until it gets vet3.
Yet the Panther is superior to all allies medium and premium medium, include Pershing. What else can you ask from it ? Superior so it own counter ?
Allies TD out range panther because it is the only way they can be count as a hard counter, and event by that, panther still can easily solo kill unsupported FF or su85, only jackson can runaway from it.
15 Oct 2019, 18:23 PM
#16
Posts: 5279
It is not fine because they get outranged and outburned.
Where is the superior axis armor?
Heck Panther turret rotation quality is worse than Churchill until it gets vet3.
The superior armour IS there, allies just have superior TDs so they can counter that armour. Okw has all values EXCEEDING 200 armour on anything that isn't a LV. Ost all their tanks less the Ostwind can as well. Allies, all 3 factions combined have only hammer/anvil tanks that exceed that value OR doctrinal tanks. Allied dedicated TDs are better due to the volume of heavily armored axis tanks they will face simply die to the saturation.
Allies DO have some heavy armour in doctrines, but axis AT is still strong despite that and is more than adequate.
Not to say that allied TDs couldn't use toning down, but axis AT isn't lacking.
#stalinwept
15 Oct 2019, 18:26 PM
#17
Posts: 4474
i think u missed the op point, he said werhmatch not okw
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
15 Oct 2019, 18:34 PM
#18
Posts: 5279
i think u missed the op point, he said werhmatch not okw
Wehr has great tools as well. The pak is great, stugs perform very well at their role, panthers are fantastic, p4 has more pen than other mediums. Brumbar is even reliable at dealing damage due to deflection damage. There are always Shreks too which are guaranteed to pen all allied core armour except comet/ church.
And my point about armour stands as well. Panther/p4/brumbar all get over 200 armour making them extremely durable against non hard counters. Hard counters are by definition very effective at their jobs
#stalinwept
15 Oct 2019, 18:44 PM
#19
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yet the Panther is superior to all allies medium and premium medium, include Pershing. What else can you ask from it ? Superior so it own counter ?
...
Panther is simply not superior to Pershing that has an AT/AI gun... One might argue that it is more cost efficient than Pershing (which I doubt) but in that cases it not more cost efficient that allied premiums.
Actually one of the most cost efficient premium mediums is probably the T-34/85
..p4 has more pen than other mediums. .
That is rather inaccurate:
PzIV Penetration near 125 Penetration mid 115 Penetration far 110
Sherman Penetration near 140 Penetration mid 130 Penetration far 100
Cromwell Penetration near 135 Penetration mid 120 Penetration far 105
T-34/76 Penetration near 120 Penetration mid 100 Penetration far 80
(Things get even worse when it comes to penetration if one compares PzIV H to allied premiums.)
I most cases allied mediums have better penetration.
15 Oct 2019, 18:57 PM
#20
Posts: 3113 | Subs: 2
Allies TDs have a 60-70% chance of penning Axis heavies, Panther has a 70-80% chance of penning Allies heavies, all at range 50. AT guns are next to standardized with the exception of USF and very slightly OKW.
The Panther is fine and very nicely balanced at the moment, which as far as I can tell also seems to be the current community consensus.
The Panther is fine and very nicely balanced at the moment, which as far as I can tell also seems to be the current community consensus.
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