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Can You Please Fix Churchill Crocs Rear Armor ?

15 Oct 2019, 12:05 PM
#81
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 11:06 AMVipper

Check the acceleration and rotation speed of Churchill it is actually very high.


But after all, its top speed is very low while the design of the the tank required it to taking shoot and fight in close range to be effective (damage spong, main gun with low far pen and grenade ability). This often lead to situation that the tank get surrounded and attacked from multi direction, so it has more acceleration and rotation to be able to manage it way out of danger.
15 Oct 2019, 12:27 PM
#82
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808



But after all, its top speed is very low while the design of the the tank required it to taking shoot and fight in close range to be effective (damage spong, main gun with low far pen and grenade ability). This often lead to situation that the tank get surrounded and attacked from multi direction, so it has more acceleration and rotation to be able to manage it way out of danger.


So why does it have high rear armour if its supposed to have high acceleration and rotation to rotate its rear armour away lol. if your churchill gets flanked, that doesn't mean its 100% destroyed, it has very high health pool, the only way you can lose it if you over extend it without any support (and it still sometimes survives lol) then you deserve to lose it.

15 Oct 2019, 12:34 PM
#83
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 12:27 PMAlphrum


So why does it have high rear armour if its supposed to have high acceleration and rotation to rotate its rear armour away lol.

What if it has high rotation to help with pathing dancing? It doesn't have high speed you know.
What if it has high rotation, so flamer is more usable? It doesn't have amazing range anymore and its narrow cone only.


if your churchill gets flanked, that doesn't mean its 100% destroyed, it has very high health pool,

That "very high health pool" is exact same health pool as any other heavy tank and 80 health more then panther.
You confused it with regular churchill.


the only way you can lose it if you over extend it without any support (and it still sometimes survives lol) then you deserve to lose it.


You can lose it the exact same way you can lose any other limited to 1 heavy, in fact you can lose it even easier, because it doesn't have high frontal armor compared to KV tanks, IS-2 or Tigers, except while other heavies can limp away every with engine damage, croc is as much as immobilized due to halving already low speed.
15 Oct 2019, 12:34 PM
#84
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



But after all, its top speed is very low while the design of the the tank required it to taking shoot and fight in close range to be effective (damage spong, main gun with low far pen and grenade ability). This often lead to situation that the tank get surrounded and attacked from multi direction, so it has more acceleration and rotation to be able to manage it way out of danger.

Bottom line is that the unit has high mobility contrary to the the claim that "mobility is shit".

in its current implementation flanking with PzIV is not rewarding since they unit has the same rear/side armor as PzIV front/side armor, more than double the HP (stock Chuchill) and more acceleration. In addition attempting such a maneuver exposes the PzIV rear/side that is half that of Churchill.

On top of all that the stock Churchill comes with stock vet 0 smoke while croc has access to "war speed" or heavy sappers and smoke shells.

As many other units, it base stat should be lowered and its vet bonuses should be redesigned to help it in its role. The unit should have less shock value and scale better with veterancy. Finally the unit requires to have a weakness either in ATG or Vehicles.

One could also try reverting the main gun change since the unit comes earlier:
Churchill Crocodile

The Crocodile has been adjusted to have its gun match other tanks. Smoke has also been added to allow the Crocodile to provide combat support.


15 Oct 2019, 12:40 PM
#85
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 12:34 PMKatitof

...

That "very high health pool" is exact same health pool as any other heavy tank and 80 health more then panther.
You confused it with regular churchill.
...

Panther has 960 HP and Croc 1080 so your math are wrong. It has 120 more HP than Panther and not 80.
15 Oct 2019, 13:53 PM
#86
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Its completely irrelevant for the argument, still needs a regular shot before it gets engine damage, still needs the same amount of ATG/tank/TD shots to kill and its still only 1 more shot to kill it, infantry AT also doesn't make a difference, unless you're bringing in only a single weapon.

15 Oct 2019, 14:00 PM
#87
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 13:53 PMKatitof
Its completely irrelevant for the argument, still needs a regular shot before it gets engine damage, still needs the same amount of ATG/tank/TD shots to kill and its still only 1 more shot to kill it, infantry AT also doesn't make a difference, unless you're bringing in only a single weapon.



Wouldn't call the extra health completely irrelevant.

1080 / 4 = 270.
1040 / 4 = 260.
160 + 100 (AT shot + snare) = 260.

So a Crocodile wouldn't get engine damage from a single AT shot + snare.
15 Oct 2019, 14:08 PM
#88
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


snip

Ok, I can give you that.
Still, the point is that "massive health" is just regular health of a heavy with much lower front armor.
15 Oct 2019, 14:28 PM
#89
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 13:53 PMKatitof
Its completely irrelevant for the argument, still needs a regular shot before it gets engine damage, still needs the same amount of ATG/tank/TD shots to kill and its still only 1 more shot to kill it, infantry AT also doesn't make a difference, unless you're bringing in only a single weapon.


When are going to stop trying to spin things around and simply accept that you have made a mistake?

Your claim:
"That "very high health pool" is exact same health pool as any other heavy tank and 80 health more then panther."

Is simply wrong accept it and move on.
15 Oct 2019, 14:34 PM
#90
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

This repeated exagerration that Churchills are high mobile units is litteraly twisting information in the most convoluted and obfuscating way. Is simply wrong, people should accept that and move on to discussing the subject to what really matters.

15 Oct 2019, 15:10 PM
#91
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 12:27 PMAlphrum


So why does it have high rear armour if its supposed to have high acceleration and rotation to rotate its rear armour away lol. if your churchill gets flanked, that doesn't mean its 100% destroyed, it has very high health pool, the only way you can lose it if you over extend it without any support (and it still sometimes survives lol) then you deserve to lose it.



Did you miss something, i said the churchill (normal) often get shoot from multi directions while doing the job it designed for, so getting extra rear armor is also a part of it design along with acceleration and rotation, while it front armor is inferior to others heavy.
15 Oct 2019, 17:25 PM
#92
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

Well, I'm totally against that strong rear armour on any vehicle. Churchills are ridiculously potent at rolling over their counters. The grenade was moved to vet 1, still it is too cheese. A rear armour nerf would be the best solution. It also does react far too quickly (for such a heavy tank) to direction changes and moving back and forth. Incredibly responsive tank compared to other vehicles in game.
16 Oct 2019, 18:00 PM
#93
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

This repeated exagerration that Churchills are high mobile units is litteraly twisting information in the most convoluted and obfuscating way. Is simply wrong, people should accept that and move on to discussing the subject to what really matters.




But they are (for a heavy tank). No other heavy tank has that type of acceleration and rotation.

Its top speed is shitty, but acceleration is one of the most important stats when it comes to defining mobility.

Tank play often involves poking and pulling the tank back and forth, so acceleration is used virtually all of the time. Churchills are easily able to avoid the 2nd AT gun shot which is needed to faust it, and in any case its high acceleration allows it to pull back from infantry attempting to faust it.

Top speed, meanwhile is far less relevant - only for rushing a unit somewhere or when you are going for a dive/chase.
16 Oct 2019, 18:08 PM
#94
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

I agree, but that makes the tank highly responsive, but not mobile :)
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