Short barreled p4 for OST?

This is all coming from a 1v1 perspective. I don't think any of this would dramatically affect team games, but I'd welcome input from team game players.

Right now OST is in a somewhat rough spot. In most matchups the MG42 is the only saving grace for the first 15 minutes or so as a lack of a strong LV at means a heavy investment in some sort of infantry AT to deal with light tank threats. OST already has weak infantry hence good MG 42 play is the only thing that will keep you from being overrun by both strong infantry and light vehicles.


The 222 seems to be in a good spot in timing and role (although i think it should have a slight edge over AA halftracks with suppression). Buffing it to an anti-light tank vehicle would be too much of a change, but OST's vulnerability to early game pressure still needs some sort of solution.

Another issue is that t4 is rarely used in 1v1, as you really really need the p4s to have any sort of map presence in a game that isn't already won.

My thought is to bring in the short barreled p4 as a trump card to the stuart, t70, and AEC. It in turn should be trumped by any of the other mediums, but can still serve as AI, and a secondary AT source.

I have three possible implementations in mind:

Simple option: Some of the fuel from battlephase 2 (t3 tech) is moved to the building, and the short-barreled p4 can be built from the hq at a moderate fuel cost after battlephase 2. This gives you a quicker option for light mobile AT that can buy you some breathing room from LV oppression, but delays your long barrel p4. With a heavy AT investment, stalling until t4 becomes a more feasible strategy. You also might be able to skip t2 entirely and rely on an early p4 to hold you over for heavy t3 investment. Having the shortbarreled p4 also helps open up more possibilities for stug usage.

Greater symmetry option: Ost tech is brought more in line with the other armies. T3 is reduced in cost, but long barrel p4 is moved to t4. Ost effectively has a choice between a T2 or T3 midgame. While I don't think it's necessary, units could be moved around the tiers, perhaps with tech unlocks for vehicles.

Maximum chaos(greater asymmetry) option: Long-barreled p4 is removed from the non-doctrinal options, and short-barreled p4 is the default tank. T3 can be reduced in cost. Opens up larger role for stug(s), and gives OST a weaker, but earlier medium vehicle window that is more in-line with the armies character. Perhaps a long-barreled upgrade can be added after finishing battle-phase 3, but I think I'd ideally like to see an "earlier" weaker version of the panther being OST's lategame battle tank, but with veterancy bonuses reflecting improvements on a tank that had a lot of problems at first. Doctrinal command tanks switch models (i.e. changed to command long-barreled p4).



Thoughts?

If it were up to me I'd just make the Stug capable of switching to HE shells like the Sherman, and then, idk, maybe buff the availability of the doctrinal Stug E to compete with it.

If it were up to me I'd just make the Stug capable of switching to HE shells like the Sherman, and then, idk, maybe buff the availability of the doctrinal Stug E to compete with it.

You think either version of the Stug ought to be the counter light tanks?

You think either version of the Stug ought to be the counter light tanks?

The regular Stug already counters light tanks. The Stug E not so much, but that's not what it's there for. I'm not really sure what to do with it if the regular stug were to get some better AI ability (again, via a shell swap like the M4, not by buffing the regular attack. I feel I should stress that highly)

The regular Stug already counters light tanks. The Stug E not so much, but that's not what it's there for. I'm not really sure what to do with it if the regular stug were to get some better AI ability (again, via a shell swap like the M4, not by buffing the regular attack. I feel I should stress that highly)

Let me rephrase: do you think stug ought to be the counter to light tanks? i.e. it's what you build due it's position in the tech tree and ability, or you think that the stug *can* counter light tanks.

I feel that it's position right now makes it a poor counter to light tanks unless they're massively overextended. There's little reason not to build a p4 instead unless you're expecting a heavy tank soon as it's got a much easier time chasing due to it's turret, and can't get juked, or even circle strafed.

I could see that changing were the Stug in t2 though. My instinct is that it would get unlocked at battlephase 2(t3), but honestly I don't really see it causing any problems as a default t2 option.

What you describe is basically the current Ostwind.

Show Spoiler

What you describe is basically the current Ostwind.

I don't think Ostwind would fit in the HQ though.

E: another point is that short-barreled p4 can chip in some damage against mediums, but it wouldn't win any 1v1 fights.

The regular Stug already counters light tanks. The Stug E not so much, but that's not what it's there for. I'm not really sure what to do with it if the regular stug were to get some better AI ability (again, via a shell swap like the M4, not by buffing the regular attack. I feel I should stress that highly)

i disagree, the regular stug is too slow to counter light tanks. You can skirt a aec around it to kill stug easily.

regular stug is only good to supplement against IS and Churchill tanks.

My diagnosis would be similar - lack of a light vehicle that is similarly potent to allied lights. Ostwind is more of a he sherman rather than a light vehicle (cost, teching requirements, etc.)

Knowing that we can't get new models of tanks (panzer 3 would be the best solution), we could allow the old upgrade on 222 - it had a button for it - to improve the cannon - you could pay some munitions and get a much better cannon - being able to penetrate t-70, AEC, stuart. It could be purchased with maybe even fuel/munitions/manpower cost. It would make it a glass cannon but if microed right able to soft counter those vehicles.

You have a pak in T2, use it.

You have a pak in T2, use it.

Everyone has an AT gun at the 4-7 minute mark. Without additional AT a single PaK is rarely more than a kind gift to your opponent.

Everyone has an AT gun at the 4-7 minute mark. Without additional investment a single PaK is nothing more than a kind gift to your opponent.

Never had that issue myself.

If you’re that desperate, try mobile defense. You get a Puma once you unlock BP2.

Never had that issue myself.

If you’re that desperate, try mobile defense. You get a Puma once you unlock BP2.

Never had what issue?

OP asks for ostwind.

OP asks for ostwind.

Ostwind doesn't help against mediums. It also has AA abilities, and should be tier locked.

No one is building ostwinds to counter LVs because of it's tier placement. I'm down with t2 Ostwinds or HQ Ostwinds at battlephase 2 however if that's your suggestion. I think there'd be problems, but okay.

Ostwind doesn't help against mediums.

Neither does stubby P4.(go check command P4 for reference)

No one is building ostwinds to counter LVs because of it's tier placement. I'm down with t2 Ostwinds or HQ Ostwinds at battlephase 2 however if that's your suggestion. I think there'd be problems, but okay.

If you want to counter lights, that's what 222 is for.
If you want to counter light tanks, tough luck, bring ATG, shrecks or wait for T3.

Neither does stubby P4.(go check command P4 for reference)



If you want to counter lights, that's what 222 is for.
If you want to counter light tanks, tough luck, bring ATG, shrecks or wait for T3.

I've looked at the p4 stats. It has better pen, and better damage than the Ostwind wrt to vehicles.

Since you seem to have all the answers, what do you think an OST army composition should look like at the 7-14 minute mark? One that can deal with a light tank, and also the infantry and crew weapons that go with the allied army?

You have an oswtind, pak 40, teller mines, panzerfausts and 222 to help you with all of this. You even have the best crowd blobby control there is, the mg42.

I've looked at the p4 stats. It has better pen, and better damage than the Ostwind wrt to vehicles.

Since you seem to have all the answers, what do you think an OST army composition should look like at the 7-14 minute mark? One that can deal with a light tank, and also the infantry and crew weapons that go with the allied army?

So 7 or 14 min?
Because that's a difference of 3-4 units.

Generally, as a rule of thumb, you HAVE to have AT unit on field around min 7 regardless of faction(shreck PGs or PaK, whatever you like more), HMG42 should also be mandatory first unit as its too good to ever pass on, fill everything between with grens and depending on opposing faction and his units add sniper/222/mortar/251 into the mix.

There is no solid IWIN BO that works equally well against all 3 factions and all their openings, you have to adapt, ost is a responsive faction, you have all the counters you need for whatever opponent throws at you.

Show Spoiler

I don't think Ostwind would fit in the HQ though.

E: another point is that short-barreled p4 can chip in some damage against mediums, but it wouldn't win any 1v1 fights.

???

My thought is to bring in the short barreled p4 as a trump card to the stuart, t70, and AEC. It in turn should be trumped by any of the other mediums, but can still serve as AI, and a secondary AT source.

Again, you described the Ostwind. A vehicle which trumps all lights, serves as AI and can still do chip damage against mediums.