M20 over nerf rofl

Jump back to quoted post9 Oct 2019, 12:47 PMVipper

M20 is cost efficient unit with or without the bazooka.

Micro light vehicle game in general sucks. M3 flamer cars, WC51 and m20 can completely mess up a game and get wipes on retreat. In return the 222 obliterates these vehicles.

Micro light vehicles could see an overhaul by increasing their window of opportunity lowering their impact, reintroducing the 221 as a soft counter to them (delaying and redesigning the 222), lowering their pop with veterancy or tech...

But I seriously doubt that since the MOD seem to (instead of increasing the window of opportunity of early unit) allowing increasing more powerful units earlier in the game.

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 09:48 AMachpawel

Dear Santa,
I'd like my 222 little panzer to get:

1. an armour upograde on 222 (I'll pay with my munitions pocket money myself - so it doesn't count);
2. smoke without a doctrine;
3. a possibility to lay a mine (but not too expensive, please - because after I buy armour upgrade I'll be a bit muni broke for mines and lmgs for my elves);
4. a better engine to drive faster (I promise to be careful).
5. I'd like it to cap territory.
6. I'd like it to have better sight - some non doctrine spotting scopes.
7. I'd like it to crit repair because friends from the playground have it on their little tanks and on bigger ones, too.
8. I'd like it to face only elite infantry with zooks because when those cheap squads get them they come too soon and there's too many of them.
9. I'd like it to have a crew with no extra cost because I'm poor.
10. And btw - if you take away the infatry awareness ability I'll cry.

I've been a good boy so please can you make that happen (friends from school keep laughing at my little tank so please help)

H&K
XXX

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 07:04 AMEsxile

Sometime I wonder if people are discovering the game just now or what. M20 has this timing since a year or so and only now you're bitching about.
The problem is not the m20 but riflemen.

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 14:46 PMSander93

All factions are delicate ecosystems. Continuously, parts of that system change causing ripple effects across the rest of it. A unit can be fine for years, and become a problem after something else changes (see Infantry Sections, after giving Royal Engineers a snare).

As for the recent Riflemen change being the core of the problem and not the M20, whether that's true or not, we're talking about a simple consideration: do we nerf Rifles again and 1) likely cause widespread outrage and 2) affect the entire USF playerbase, or do we nerf the M20 and affect only the high level 1v1 playerbase where the unit is used and causes problems?

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 14:46 PMSander93

All factions are delicate ecosystems. Continuously, parts of that system change causing ripple effects across the rest of it. A unit can be fine for years, and become a problem after something else changes (see Infantry Sections, after giving Royal Engineers a snare).

As for the recent Riflemen change being the core of the problem and not the M20, whether that's true or not, we're talking about a simple consideration: do we nerf Rifles again and 1) likely cause widespread outrage and 2) affect the entire USF playerbase, or do we nerf the M20 and affect only the high level 1v1 playerbase where the unit is used and causes problems?

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 18:16 PMT.R. Stormjäger

The main issue is you’ve overnerfed the faction with the build time increases. I think the 50 cal build time nerf needs to be reverted.

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 18:05 PMEsxile

you're affecting much more medium level players that needed this zook to play the unit

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 19:36 PMSander93

Why? Can these players not find the bazooka upgrade key on the Lieutenant? Or any of the other light AT sources the USF has? The M20 didn't need the bazooka on any level.

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 21:15 PMEsxile

Wondering why it has it since ever...

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 21:15 PMEsxile

Wondering why it has it since ever...

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 22:37 PMelchino7

If you want a real answer:

-It was much more expensive.
-It took longer to build
-It had higher popcap.
-Less utility and less scaling through vet while taking way longer to vet as well.
-Mines took ages to plant.
-Most of the time, picking an officer meant that you were locked down for several minutes and resources from getting any real AT, as the tier got an MG without AP rounds and the AA HT. The LT had a bar, not a zook.

Jump back to quoted post10 Oct 2019, 21:15 PMEsxile

Wondering why it has it since ever...

Jump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 16:09 PMSander93

That's not an argument at all. If something has been there for 10 years but is causing problems now, that's no reason to leave it. Not that it matters anyway, because the big Dec 2018 changes to tech have completely changed the situation anyway.


As for why it had the bazooka before, and why it doesn't need it now, that's mostly because USF tech was incredibly stiff, and the M20 was in the Lieutenant (who had a BAR) tier with the M2HB and M15 AAHT. There was no AT except for M2HB AP ammo or bazookas with weapon racks.

Now the Stuart is in the LT tier, and the LT gets the bazooka upgrade, so there is no more reason for the M20 crew to need a bazooka. On top of that it used to have a manpower premium for the bazooka, which was already changed with a hefty cost reduction (from 340MP to 240MP), so getting both the M20 and the bazooka for only 240MP was simply too cost effective when taking into account the rest of USF's (new) early game snowballing and cost effective economy.

Jump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 18:29 PMEsxile

I'm sorry but I have yet to see a m20 surviving two 222

Jump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 19:10 PMSander93

Why should it be able to survive two units that in total are worth tripple the fuel cost? Not that it even could before? Why should it even be able to survive overextending against a single 222 (its hardcounter)?

It has 45 range, 50 sight range. There's never a need to overextend except when being greedy, which is always a risk, with any unit.