I feel like the soviet industry commander lacks a decent 'tank' considering its theme. The T34/76 is more of a novelty than anything else in team games and I rarely use it for anything other than diving rocket arty.
I'd be happy for the KV8 to be swapped out with something else as I feel it has a niche use in team games where this commander is mainly used.
Or bundle the T34/85 OR KV1 with an existing ability. Although this would probably be excessive.
Let me know what you guys think.
T34/85 or KV1 in Soviet Industry Commander?
4 Oct 2019, 13:29 PM
#1
Posts: 1096
4 Oct 2019, 13:41 PM
#2
Posts: 1979
industry suffers from the deficiency of all core soviet builds... it doesnt get callin infantry... soo its early-midgame is as bad as core soviet when opening with T2 and its mid-lategame is pretty bad when opening with T1... (which should really be fixed if the balance team gave a damn about crutches)
but at the same time its only crutch are fuel based lategame units like the KV-2 and KV-8... i doubt adding a KV-1 or a T-34-85 will help the commander due to fuel burden...
the best option imo would be to emphasise on the "industry" part and allow soviet industry to have some kind of a doctrinal cache that say provides increased resources...
but at the same time its only crutch are fuel based lategame units like the KV-2 and KV-8... i doubt adding a KV-1 or a T-34-85 will help the commander due to fuel burden...
the best option imo would be to emphasise on the "industry" part and allow soviet industry to have some kind of a doctrinal cache that say provides increased resources...
4 Oct 2019, 14:18 PM
#3
Posts: 1389 | Subs: 1
I think this doctrine faced issue with overlapping abilities. Two slots are taken by repair abilities. On top of that, you have two really expensive call-ins, both of them are kind about AI option (KV-2 really can fight with vehicles though). Fifth ability is quite often become a button "Spend 100 munitions for nothing".
Addionaly, soviet doesn't have useful non-doctrinal medium tank, unlike other factions, where you usually have good medium tank AND top medium tank/heavy tank in addition. USF is exception, but it has extremely good M4A3 sherman for compensation and TD with turret.
I would like to see there T-34-85, but it will be out of theme (early war stuff, but still used), and will make this doctrine the most fuel oriented doctrine in the game i guess.
Addionaly, soviet doesn't have useful non-doctrinal medium tank, unlike other factions, where you usually have good medium tank AND top medium tank/heavy tank in addition. USF is exception, but it has extremely good M4A3 sherman for compensation and TD with turret.
I would like to see there T-34-85, but it will be out of theme (early war stuff, but still used), and will make this doctrine the most fuel oriented doctrine in the game i guess.
4 Oct 2019, 14:59 PM
#4
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
The entire commander is cheesy garbage. Last time I faced it a Chinese guy kept spamming T34/76s like there was no tomorrow. This entire commander needs an overhaul to fit the theme a lot better.
0CP - KV1 (Heavy tank aids in anti infantry duties and defense)
0CP - T34/85 (Premium medium brawler helping in AT)
0CP - Premium treads and optics (Soviet industry reduced production times by removing non-essential parts. This commander could increase production times by 1.5 in order to give faster tank speeds and improved accuracy)
3CP - Heavy engineers (70 muni upgrade for CEs, doubles repair times, gives them 2 PPSH 41s and allows scavenging wrecks)
3CP - Repair station (Combined with heavy engineers allows rapid repairs of armour)
0CP - KV1 (Heavy tank aids in anti infantry duties and defense)
0CP - T34/85 (Premium medium brawler helping in AT)
0CP - Premium treads and optics (Soviet industry reduced production times by removing non-essential parts. This commander could increase production times by 1.5 in order to give faster tank speeds and improved accuracy)
3CP - Heavy engineers (70 muni upgrade for CEs, doubles repair times, gives them 2 PPSH 41s and allows scavenging wrecks)
3CP - Repair station (Combined with heavy engineers allows rapid repairs of armour)
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4 Oct 2019, 15:02 PM
#5
Posts: 818
I think this doctrine faced issue with overlapping abilities. Two slots are taken by repair abilities. On top of that, you have two really expensive call-ins, both of them are kind about AI option (KV-2 really can fight with vehicles though). Fifth ability is quite often become a button "Spend 100 munitions for nothing".
Addionaly, soviet doesn't have useful non-doctrinal medium tank, unlike other factions, where you usually have good medium tank AND top medium tank/heavy tank in addition. USF is exception, but it has extremely good M4A3 sherman for compensation and TD with turret.
I would like to see there T-34-85, but it will be out of theme (early war stuff, but still used), and will make this doctrine the most fuel oriented doctrine in the game i guess.
Good Point on the doctrines overlap. It has not really had a consistent place since it stopped being focused on resource manipulation.
Maybe this is a good candidate for a rework if they have the opportunity to do more.
Regarding the Tanks in the doctrine, They are both fine, but they don't ever really seem like the best option.
Especially the KV-8 when you can have a Kv-1 for the same cost. The KV-8 does damage quickly but to me you need to get vet 3 for speed, range, and burst duration to start killing models and chasing squads to base, else you mostly force retreats and do hp damage. Plus you need enough fuel for another vehicle to support it. It's fantastic at vet 3 though, but with all the preconditions, why not just wait and get a kv2 or in other docs an IS2 instead.
All said an 85 would fit this doctrine's tank spam theme in my opinion and provide a more mobile compliment to the KV2.
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4 Oct 2019, 15:07 PM
#6
Posts: 1954
I voted for the T34/85 because that looked to be the best of the options. As Osinyagov pointed out, there are two slots taken by repairs and two AI tanks so the doctrine is anything but fine. I'd rather see the Crew Repair replaced by Guards or Shocks.
The KV2 is slow and easy to dive with Panthers or even mediums unless you have a ton of AT around it.
The KV2 is slow and easy to dive with Panthers or even mediums unless you have a ton of AT around it.
4 Oct 2019, 15:08 PM
#7
Posts: 72
I personally think the doc is fine, you can usually rush a KV-8 before AT walls really pop up, especially in 2v2s, it makes for a decent shock unit at the start, even if vetting it up feels like quite the chore. in the bigger gamemodes, just rush out a KV-8 for the heck of it, or an SU-85 if you're slightly late to the party, then get the KV-2 and another SU-85 to counter everything existence. if your KV-8 is still alive then you now have a tank army capable of tackling anything on the battlefield.
4 Oct 2019, 15:10 PM
#8
Posts: 72
...I'd rather see the Crew Repair replaced by Guards or Shocks.
There's already a commander with Shocks and a KV-2 in the form of Urban Defense, but seeing Guards and a KV-2 together would be nice.
4 Oct 2019, 15:13 PM
#9
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Again its about we stop buffing commander and start nerfing better designed them...
4 Oct 2019, 15:20 PM
#10
Posts: 1954
There's already a commander with Shocks and a KV-2 in the form of Urban Defense, but seeing Guards and a KV-2 together would be nice.
Guards would be my preference - I'd always have one around the KV-2 to help with its survivability like I do with the ISU. It might make it an option compared to Mechanized Support or Shock Rifle. Three tanks would be overkill and almost as unhelpful as two repairs.
4 Oct 2019, 15:29 PM
#11
Posts: 1096
Again its about we stop buffing commander and start nerfing better designed them...
I can't quite get the gist of what you are trying to say.
At present the Soviet Industry commander is under no threat of becoming OP.
If we add the T34/85 in place of the KV8 it would still be balanced by fuel dependency, no elite infantry and no call in arty or recon.
Plus with the IS2 buff you're better off going for armoured assault.
4 Oct 2019, 15:36 PM
#12
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Again its about we stop buffing commander and start nerfing better designed them...
Disagree, commanders that are bad need to be retooled to fit their theme better and be stronger for their role.
An example would be Luftwaffe supply doctrine, which almost nobody uses. Now imagine this commander getting a Luftwaffe officier and Fallschrimjaegers. Not only would this fit the theme better but we’d also see more of that commander. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating for obscure commanders to become OP, I just think UP commanders should be made effective.
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4 Oct 2019, 15:52 PM
#13
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I can't quite get the gist of what you are trying to say.
At present the Soviet Industry commander is under no threat of becoming OP.
Not is not and Urban is simply better.
If we add the T34/85 in place of the KV8 it would still be balanced by fuel dependency, no elite infantry and no call in arty or recon.
Plus with the IS2 buff you're better off going for armoured assault.
T-34/85 is one of the most cost efficient premium medium's there is little reason to be available in more commander to make them "more attractive". Actually some of the commanders it is already available should be redesigned.
4 Oct 2019, 15:55 PM
#14
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Disagree, commanders that are bad need to be retooled to fit their theme better and be stronger for their role...
Buffing 1 commander to be at become at same power level as the average of the faction might not even make it meta. Nerfing the the Top choice commander to the average power level of faction greatly increases meta. One can see that with the Spec OP nerfs that greatly increased the OKW commander used.
Again its about nerfing and not buffing, it is also about adding different utility not giving the best tools to every commander.
4 Oct 2019, 16:01 PM
#15
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Buffing 1 commander to be at become at same power level as the average of the faction might not even make it meta. Nerfing the the Top choice commander to the average power level of faction greatly increases meta. One can see that with the Spec OP nerfs that greatly increased the OKW commander used.
Again its about nerfing and not buffing, it is also about adding different utility not giving the best tools to every commander.
You are correct about spec ops, but that doesn’t mean it would apply everywhere, especially for the soviets who rely on commander picks to compete.
In general I think factions with several meta commanders like OKW are in a good spot and shouldn’t be nerfed, while factions crutching on one or two commanders could use a nerf if it’s balanced by other buffs.
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4 Oct 2019, 16:11 PM
#16
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
You are correct about spec ops, but that doesn’t mean it would apply everywhere, especially for the soviets who rely on commander picks to compete.
In general I think factions with several meta commanders like OKW are in a good spot and shouldn’t be nerfed, while factions crutching on one or two commanders could use a nerf if it’s balanced by other buffs.
Let me explain this another way, T-34/76 got a massive buff to hmg DPS and currently has a similar DPS to the PZIV 3 hmg that actually PzIV has to pay for.
By accident the same buff went to T-34/76 which was designed to be more of an AT tank. Then people started arguing that T-34/85 is better the KV-1 which in return got significant buffs. And now people claim that these unit should be available to even more commanders.
That is the essence of powercreep. One should actually make both the T-34/85 and Kv-1 less cost efficient since both units are far superior to the PzIV H. If that result to lower Soviet win rates than the faction should be buffed and not the doctrinal units.
4 Oct 2019, 16:12 PM
#17
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Let me explain this another way, T-34/76 got a massive buff to hmg DPS and currently has a similar DPS to the PZIV 3 hmg that actually PzIV has to pay for.
By accident the same buff went to T-34/76 which was designed to be more of an AT tank. Then people started arguing that T-34/85 is better the KV-1 which in return got significant buffs. And now people claim that these unit should be available to even more commanders.
That is the essence of powercreep. One should actually make both the T-34/85 and Kv-1 less cost efficient since both units are far superior to the PzIV H. If that result to lower Soviet win rates than the faction should be buffed and not the doctrinal units.
Agreed, if doctrinal units get nerfed and the core army buffed, it would improve the faction.
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4 Oct 2019, 16:30 PM
#18
Posts: 1096
Let me explain this another way, T-34/76 got a massive buff to hmg DPS and currently has a similar DPS to the PZIV 3 hmg that actually PzIV has to pay for.
By accident the same buff went to T-34/76 which was designed to be more of an AT tank. Then people started arguing that T-34/85 is better the KV-1 which in return got significant buffs. And now people claim that these unit should be available to even more commanders.
That is the essence of powercreep. One should actually make both the T-34/85 and Kv-1 less cost efficient since both units are far superior to the PzIV H. If that result to lower Soviet win rates than the faction should be buffed and not the doctrinal units.
I believe people argued for the KV1 to be buffed on the grounds of it being utterly shit before XD
Anyway, this thread was to see if people think the commander should be changed.
T38/85 OP discussion can go in it's own thread, if you believe it to be the case-I don't but there we go.
4 Oct 2019, 16:32 PM
#19
Posts: 1979
as i said before... a T-34-85 wont really help this doctrine as there would be significant fuel burden to the doctrine... perhaps premium optics and treads would be nice.. but i would prefer say an "improved fuel cache" that generates more fuel per tick... it really plays into the theme of soviet industry tactics being a armor spam doctrine
4 Oct 2019, 16:33 PM
#20
Posts: 1096
Agreed, if doctrinal units get nerfed and the core army buffed, it would improve the faction.
if the the T34/76's performance was tenable for anything above 1v1 then it would be a different matter.
if this was regarding Ost/OKW/USF or even UKF then it wouldn't matter as they all have solid non-doctrinal tanks.
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