Grens UP & G43s suck

You didn’t mention riflemen. So volks, a defensive infantry unit whose kar98s have no moving accuracy shouldn’t defend itself from rifles and their far superior close range dps with sandbags, but on the other hand rifles should also win long range engagements by abusing sandbags.

Volks a defensive inf with flame nade and an upgrade geared for closer ranges. Strange defensive infantry if you ask me.

Rifles who dont have elite inf non doc nor a strong engineer backing them up unlike volks. So no i did not mention riflemen. And 1 of the 2 only has a doctrinal sandbags. And i did not say okw should loose the sandbags all together just move them to sturms and replace their salvage ability.

The thread is about grens and there was a post about removing sandbags from other mainlines to benefit grens, I am not derailing anything, you’re the offtopic one with your personal vendetta. Please stop antagonising and stick to the topic.

Except for the fact that your last post was talking about the matchup between Riflemen and Volks...

Grens are much more defensive than volks, no sandbags...

Can I say that most of us agree that it would be a good idea to give grens sandbags OR just remove them from mailnine infantry and let engineer units build them (especially now, with non doctrine 7th model for cons and buff to riflemen)?

Volks a defensive inf with flame nade and an upgrade geared for closer ranges. Strange defensive infantry if you ask me.

Rifles who dont have elite inf non doc nor a strong engineer backing them up unlike volks. So no i did not mention riflemen. And 1 of the 2 only has a doctrinal sandbags. And i did not say okw should loose the sandbags all together just move them to sturms and replace their salvage ability.

Conscripts defensive infantry with Sprint, flame nade and doctrinal assault package.

Also yeah sure let the 300mp engineer unit make all the sandbags and repair all the vehicles and build all the mines and protect Volks from rifles closing in.

Great game design, I guess I’ll spend another 300mp on an engineer unit while USF can have rifles build sandbags and split minelaying between rifles and M20.

Any other crippling OKW nerfs you wanna propose? I’m sure if okw keeps getting nerfed it won't be broken.

Imo the only mainline infantry that should have sandbags are those that benifit from them via a cover modifier.
Cons (pre 7 man it's essential for their intended role and poor stats, and after the upgrade for their bonus)
Tommies, again cover bonus. Although I'd toy with the idea of moving the trench to sappers and making it more attractive somehow
Ostroppen, yet again a cover bonus. Similar to cons their job is to be holding ground not taking it.

All engineers on the flip should have access and any other mainline access should be doctrinally gated. Cover is important and should require sacrifice to generate, not on the units you are using to take ground through brute force as you want them anyways. Make unit composition more important and viable.

Conscripts defensive infantry with Sprint, flame nade and doctrinal assault package.

Also yeah sure let the 300mp engineer unit make all the sandbags and repair all the vehicles and build all the mines and protect Volks from rifles closing in.

Great game design, I guess I’ll spend another 300mp on an engineer unit while USF can have rifles build sandbags and split minelaying between rifles and M20.

Any other crippling OKW nerfs you wanna propose? I’m sure if okw keeps getting nerfed it won't be broken.

I forgot about them - no more stuff okw sturms (their barbed wire is already broken). I don't know for sure but to me it is the most broken unit in the game.

Imo the only mainline infantry that should have sandbags are those that benifit from them via a cover modifier.
Cons (pre 7 man it's essential for their intended role and poor stats, and after the upgrade for their bonus)
Tommies, again cover bonus. Although I'd toy with the idea of moving the trench to sappers and making it more attractive somehow
Ostroppen, yet again a cover bonus. Similar to cons their job is to be holding ground not taking it.

All engineers on the flip should have access and any other mainline access should be doctrinally gated. Cover is important and should require sacrifice to generate, not on the units you are using to take ground through brute force as you want them anyways. Make unit composition more important and viable.

If you wanna take sandbags away from Volks, then make Sturmpioneers 250mp so I’m not forced to get through the early and mid game with my starting one.

Imo the only mainline infantry that should have sandbags are those that benifit from them via a cover modifier.
Cons (pre 7 man it's essential for their intended role and poor stats, and after the upgrade for their bonus)
Tommies, again cover bonus. Although I'd toy with the idea of moving the trench to sappers and making it more attractive somehow
Ostroppen, yet again a cover bonus. Similar to cons their job is to be holding ground not taking it.

All engineers on the flip should have access and any other mainline access should be doctrinally gated. Cover is important and should require sacrifice to generate, not on the units you are using to take ground through brute force as you want them anyways. Make unit composition more important and viable.

Agree with all the above - but then grens should have it without doc as they will never be stock 5 models squad. One thing to be remembered - even if they get sandbags it is (in my opinion) not going to infuence the game much. It will probobly make the game less micro intensive for ost (no need to run around with pios that much) and let players surprise opponents with grens' positioning (not as predictable as map cover). It's just a detail that will make game better and reward skill. It may mean that some players will come back to building grens instead of skipping them. To make it even better you could remove bunker building ability from grens. It could be reserved for pios.

Conscripts defensive infantry with Sprint, flame nade and doctrinal assault package.

Also yeah sure let the 300mp engineer unit make all the sandbags and repair all the vehicles and build all the mines and protect Volks from rifles closing in.

Great game design, I guess I’ll spend another 300mp on an engineer unit while USF can have rifles build sandbags and split minelaying between rifles and M20.

Any other crippling OKW nerfs you wanna propose? I’m sure if okw keeps getting nerfed it won't be broken.

I never said cons are degensive inf. Cons only become anything other then support after pooring in recources or commiting to doctrines. Cons are pretty shitty at holding anything with their short range orientationand no non doc ai weapon upgrade. Those sandbags help them there until 7th man then it becomes powerful. Volks have better support same faust and flame nade require no doctrine because they can hold ground and take it. Nor do they require massive investments. And still are on par with 7tm man cons mostly.

Now how do rifles have sandbags again? Ow yeah doctrines........

Agree with all the above - but then grens should have it without doc as they will never be stock 5 models squad. One thing to be remembered - even if they get sandbags it is (in my opinion) not going to infuence the game much. It will probobly make the game less micro intensive for ost (no need to run around with pios that much) and let players surprise opponents with grens' positioning (not as predictable as map cover). It's just a detail that will make game better and reward skill. It may mean that some players will come back to building grens instead of skipping them. To make it even better you could remove bunker building ability from grens. It could be reserved for pios.

You are underestimating the impact of giving Grenadiers sandbags. It would be 10 times stronger than the change of letting Rifles build mines with 4 entities instead of 2.

Keeping one of the last tokens of asymmetry alive, i would like seeing tested, bunkers with cheaper build cost and most of the mp cost be moved towards the MG upgrade or healing upgrade, making the reinforce bunker competitive cost wise. No one is going to use 150mp bunkers as cover.

You are underestimating the impact of giving Grenadiers sandbags. It would be 10 times stronger than the change of letting Rifles build mines with 4 entities instead of 2.

Keeping one of the last tokens of asymmetry alive, i would like seeing tested, bunkers with cheaper build cost and most of the mp cost be moved towards the MG upgrade or healing upgrade, making the reinforce bunker competitive cost wise. No one is going to use 150mp bunkers as cover.

That is a bloody good idea I was too afraid to suggest similar ideas as I think that this might be a bigger revolution than the sandbag. I'm also a bit scared that suggesting anything that can even indirectly buff ost is frowned upon on this forum (even if it is unbiased and logical).

But tbh I'd give those dsandbags a try.

That is a bloody good idea I was too afraid to suggest similar ideas as I think that this might be a bigger revolution than the sandbag. I'm also a bit scared that suggesting anything that can even indirectly buff ost is frowned upon on this forum (even if it is unbiased and logical).

But tbh I'd give those dsandbags a try.

There problem with sandbags, and specially small section ones, is that they end up been too prominent and have way more utility if given to units you expect 3/4 of them and possible be able to spam them till 5/6.

Bunkers on the other hand, do have a cost, can't be spammed anywhere, need an orientation, forces you to not use abilities and you have less control of the unit once inside of it.

My idea is to kill 2 birds with one stone.

Oh How do you do that. I do it only through in game interface. Is it possible to do it differently?

You can google nicks on relics leaderboards, not all of us are hiding on forums under different one.
That being said, I do have a smurf for 1v1 and RTs since I'm playing exclusively AT on my main account and currently am accepting applications.

There problem with sandbags, and specially small section ones, is that they end up been too prominent and have way more utility if given to units you expect 3/4 of them and possible be able to spam them till 5/6.

Bunkers on the other hand, do have a cost, can't be spammed anywhere, need an orientation, forces you to not use abilities and you have less control of the unit once inside of it.

My idea is to kill 2 birds with one stone.

Keeping fingers crossed for it then

You can google nicks on relics leaderboards, not all of us are hiding on forums under different one.
That being said, I do have a smurf for 1v1 and RTs since I'm playing exclusively AT on my main account and currently am accepting applications.

So you just look for it on relic webpage? ok. What is RTs or AT? (I don't mind smurfing tbh - it used to be a problem but they seem to have improved sth in mechanics, or fewer smurfs, idk - I don't do it cause I have too little time to play and I'm not too worried about stats - if I learn to play with shortcuts one day... ...then maybe) What are you accepting applications for?

So you just look for it on relic webpage? ok. What is RTs or AT? (I don't mind smurfing tbh - it used to be a problem but they seem to have improved sth in mechanics, or fewer smurfs, idk - I don't do it cause I have too little time to play and I'm not too worried about stats - if I learn to play with shortcuts one day... ...then maybe) What are you accepting applications for?

Yes, relic leaderboard is enough if there are no special characters in ones name and in-game name is same as on forum.
AT=arranged teams
RT=random teams
Feel free to post some random thread in scrap yard to continue this as its off topic.

Just wandering into the thread so I want to put in my two cents.

My perspective is from 1v1, so there might be team game issues I don't see.

Grens don't really need a buff so much as they need their role more clearly defined.

The major issue with grens is that even when you do everything right they still take *forever* to force other infantry to retreat.

You can make the argument that OST is a combined arms faction, but in reality it's the worst, only getting slightly better if you have ostruppen, ass grens, or a bunch of veteran squad leader upgrades.

Why? You can't protect your crew weapons, and small squad size means that they're nearly impossible to recrew. Even if you have grens with your MG, if it gets flanked they simply won't be able to force off the squad in time. This is why OST will have only 1 MG, and maybe some PaKs. All the other factions can field many more crew weapons since A) they can defend them and B) they have the close range DPS to contest weapons and the squad size to recrew them.


In order to fix grens as a decent mainline two things need to happen IMO.

1) Flatten their DPS curve i.e. move some close range damage to long range. Grens are supposed to be long range units, but they don't really excel at long range fights, they're only marginally better. If someone is capping your cutoff the only option you really have is having the MG nearby or sacrificing a bunch of pio models as grens can't really do much other than poke at the capping squad hoping they'll run away. With a flatter DPS curve grens become a threat that has to be dealt with immediately, instead of a nuisance that you deal with eventually. Now you'd have to move in to deal with the grens before capping if you don't want to suffer a major manpower loss, and the MG may or may not be there to protect them. This would make the MG a more defensive unit that reinforces the grens instead of an offensive necessity.

2) Sacrifice some of grens RA for more damage. Grens don't have the overall DPS to really punish aggressive play. They hardly ever wipe squads with weapon damage alone. The hot nor cold approach to their damage and RA simply doesn't work. They should excel in one or the other, and glass cannons make far more sense than impotent Neo's dodging bullets. Increasing the damage makes positioning far more important, meanwhile making grens an actual threat to an opponent's manpower pool.



As an aside: G43s are the best upgrade you can get for grens. 1) they come fast for a munitions starved faction. 2) Grens need close range damage to punish charging squads far more than they need a little bit more long range DPS. By the time you get all the MG42s for your grens vehicles will be doing most of the manpower damage (so a teller mine is probably be a better muni investment), and there will be elite squads running about like shocks, thompson rangers, and commandos that really don't care about a tiny bit more damage on their way to devastating your squad at close range where the MG42 isn't doing anything.

You can google nicks on relics leaderboards, not all of us are hiding on forums under different one.
That being said, I do have a smurf for 1v1 and RTs since I'm playing exclusively AT on my main account and currently am accepting applications.

what do you need a smurf for?

what do you need a smurf for?

Experiments mostly, stuff I wouldn't really attempt during AT due to risks.
Avoiding playercard drama too.

Not a fan of meta, 1v1 and RT, I'm 2v2 AT player, considering myself competitive enough, so I find it pointless to do silly stuff on main account in 1s or with randumbs while I look for another reliable AT partner, tho, I'll soon get old friend to play the game again, but he'll present glorious ullu performance for literal years he did not played and I'd rather lift low rank on main acc in AT team them do placement again after using smurf for training him back first.

Experiments mostly, stuff I wouldn't really attempt during AT due to risks.
Avoiding playercard drama too.

Not a fan of meta, 1v1 and RT, I'm 2v2 AT player, considering myself competitive enough, so I find it pointless to do silly stuff on main account in 1s or with randumbs while I look for another reliable AT partner, tho, I'll soon get old friend to play the game again, but he'll present glorious ullu performance for literal years he did not played and I'd rather lift low rank on main acc in AT team them do placement again after using smurf for training him back first.

Just play with Vipper and stream it on twitch while you two argue over Discord. Everyone would watch.