What is StuG TWP supposed to do?

I love stug and would love to see it made into a worthwhile investment due improved ability. I'm just afraid that if you improve its ability to take on heavies or TDs then the T4 is going to be dead for good. Why would I ever tech up for p5 when I can get 2,5 Stugs that can now bully heavies or TD for the added costs of teching and p5.

Stug is not a TD, its an assault gun and as such it would be more fitting for it to just receive HE rounds. Just like it says in the description. The P5 is the ostheer TD and it's great. The T4 should just be fixed to make it more appealing choice in 1v1s

Well, it's bad if you have veteran squads because the buff for Combined Arms is sometimes worse than the veterancy bonuses that the ability replaces!

That was (stealth)fixed some patches ago by MrSmith.
Combined Arms now correctly applies the ability bonuses on top of veterancy bonuses, which makes it an incredibly powerful ability.

Why not just make it 60 range like other TDs? Simple and finally giving a 60 range tank destroyer to ost. If you really insist it could be temporary (sth between su85 and US at gun).

Why not just make it 60 range like other TDs? Simple and finally giving a 60 range tank destroyer to ost. If you really insist it could be temporary (sth between su85 and US at gun).

You could give the stug +10 range at vet 2. Because right now only vet 3 gives something usefull.

Why not just make it 60 range like other TDs? Simple and finally giving a 60 range tank destroyer to ost. If you really insist it could be temporary (sth between su85 and US at gun).

I honestly think this is a bad solution. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have the exact numbers at hand right now), but the StuG always or at least very reliably penetrates Allied armor except for the very heavies, which is its intended role. Increasing the range to 60 would make it very similar to the JP4 and only be possible with increasing the fuel price accordingly.
In my eyes, the reason why we don't see much of the JP4 is that it has no real role on the battlefield. It is quite fiddly due to being a casematte, too expensive to buy for just countering mediums and has too less pen to fight against heavies. The Panther is more often a better choice because while being more expensive, it's an overall less micro intensive and allround better unit. The only thing that a JP4 can do better is countering Allied TDs, but that's it.
StuG would suffer the same fate. Right now it has a very good niche. A Casematte to counter mediums. A bit fiddly but being cheaper than the unit it counters. And it also performs well in that role. If TWP really is a big issue, than it should be buffed or exchanged for another ability. But keep in mind that the overall performance of the StuG should remain the same (assuming here that the StuG is decently prices for its performance)

I honestly think this is a bad solution. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have the exact numbers at hand right now), but the StuG always or at least very reliably penetrates Allied armor except for the very heavies, which is its intended role. Increasing the range to 60 would make it very similar to the JP4 and only be possible with increasing the fuel price accordingly.
In my eyes, the reason why we don't see much of the JP4 is that it has no real role on the battlefield. It is quite fiddly due to being a casematte, too expensive to buy for just countering mediums and has too less pen to fight against heavies. The Panther is more often a better choice because while being more expensive, it's an overall less micro intensive and allround better unit. The only thing that a JP4 can do better is countering Allied TDs, but that's it.
StuG would suffer the same fate. Right now it has a very good niche. A Casematte to counter mediums. A bit fiddly but being cheaper than the unit it counters. And it also performs well in that role. If TWP really is a big issue, than it should be buffed or exchanged for another ability. But keep in mind that the overall performance of the StuG should remain the same (assuming here that the StuG is decently prices for its performance)

Agreed fully here with Your arguments. Logical. The issue is simply complicated. Still I'm not so sure it is such a bad idea, but I have more.

I see two main problems. First, no stock 60 range tank destroyer for ost. It makes stugs (and other tanks) easily destroyed by anti tank guns with range 60 and allied tank destroyers, also with range 60. Stugs have to close in to shoot and can be kited by other TD. Also anti tank infantry kills them very well and they can't be further from them where bazookas are less likely to hit, because they are 50 range. At the same time they can't be too good cause they are tier 3. In the past they had TWP that would stop the vehicle and wouldn't allow it to retreat for a couple of seconds. This ability was enough to make 50 range ok. The problem was when two or more stugs kept using it one after another and stopped allied tanks. It was a nightmare and good that it got nerfed. Having written all this I really sort of think that maybe making stug simply more expensive and giving it 60 range might be the best and simplest solution (maybe 55 range?). Another solution would be to replace twp with a copy of USF at gun timed and munipaid ability to get extra sight and range temporarily. It would drain munitions for extra performance. Another option would be an upgrade to stock scopes instead of pintle (you could choose one of the two) One more thing, stug with range 50 is a good defensive weapon, but you sometimes have to support attacks too, and then range 60 would really help as good micro wouldn't make you enter at guns and casamate TDs range that easily.


The second problem is connected with ost tier 4. If stug is too good, there is little reason to buy a panther. My opinion (similar to Imperial Dane's) and confirmed by observing the tournament so far is that ostheer tier 4 is overpriced. Panthers seem to be too expensive and building them drains you of too much resources for what you get. With the same resources your opponent will build two tanks, or a tank and an infantry squad. Panthers need to be repaired by pioneers to use their health pool effectively, which means that you basically need to buy a panther plus a pio to keep repairing it (or retreat the one you have - which means removing 200 manpower from the front reducing strength of inf and capping potential). It is almost 600 manpower and almost 200 fuel. Just a bit less you pay for a Jackson and a sherman where you get two crews included in the price. What is more, those crews can repair both of these tanks quicker and have access to crit repairs. Soviets will field SU85 and a t34 for almost the same price as panther, and buy engineers more cheaply, plus will get fast repairs from many doctrines. UKF can field a comet at a price of panther, which is similarly strong at anti tank duties (comet vs panther dual comet will more often lose but panther survives with amost no health), and comet is very good against infantry. That means that panther is just a myth now. I'd make panther cheaper or make it better at infantry longer range combat.

So all in all - what you do with stug must be connected with panther.

You could give the stug +10 range at vet 2. Because right now only vet 3 gives something usefull.

IMO it is a good idea. We could start with 55 to test it.

+5 range at vet 2ans move the skirts to a BP3 bonus perhaps? Stug shouldn't be a stock 60 range tho, it would require a heafy price increase and that's not really the design of the unit.

Stug TWP I always assumed was to be a defensive ability the way it is now, but maybe changing it for something more like the okw puma aimed shot could be interesting by making it more support no matter the scenario?

+5 range at vet 2ans move the skirts to a BP3 bonus perhaps? Stug shouldn't be a stock 60 range tho, it would require a heafy price increase and that's not really the design of the unit.

Stug TWP I always assumed was to be a defensive ability the way it is now, but maybe changing it for something more like the okw puma aimed shot could be interesting by making it more support no matter the scenario?

All good ideas imo

That was (stealth)fixed some patches ago by MrSmith.
Combined Arms now correctly applies the ability bonuses on top of veterancy bonuses, which makes it an incredibly powerful ability.

He also did the same for british command vehicle.
I love vet 3 fireflies with 4 seconds reload

He also did the same for british command vehicle.
I love vet 3 fireflies with 4 seconds reload

I don't know such details but always in games i find Wehr losing out late games.lol sweet allies vet bonus

All good ideas imo

Yes good discussion.
Imo we can try derbyhat suggestions on the ammo ability, but with 120 damage instead of just 80. I am conflicted about stug to get 60 range. While good, it could become too much camping as currently faced against 60TD.

Stug imo lacks pen and poor ability bonus. Fixed those and we be fine. Non turret AT should not face fast and cheap allies med, thus need the pen

Yes good discussion.
Imo we can try derbyhat suggestions on the ammo ability, but with 120 damage instead of just 80. I am conflicted about stug to get 60 range. While good, it could become too much camping as currently faced against 60TD.

Stug imo lacks pen and poor ability bonus. Fixed those and we be fine. Non turret AT should not face fast and cheap allies med, thus need the pen

Agreed though I feel that range is more crucial. It changes positioning and at guns' fire versus stug - it means that it will be your mistake to get into their range or their player's better skill at positioning. Now you have to be in their strange too often to shoot. Another idea might be to use sniper mechanics and make it aim longer far range. It could also deal less damage far range (like what You wrote - far range damage could be 120, but medium and close could stay as is), it could get this extra range at vet 1.

SU76 has 60 range too....yes it has no armor and less pene....but still AI barrage.

Make Stug cost to 115 fuel and give it 60 range.

Or

make stug same cost like now and at vet3 with a muni invest per stug to get range 60

or give stug a time abilty like M1 AT gun to get more range (60) for 10-15 sec etc.

it wount be op and bleed ost muni even more...but in some situation you get your reward

Make it the same shitty skillshot with barely improved damage and penetration taking ages to fire as pershing, because axis spammers say its good ability.

Offtopic: change overwatch skillplanes to something similar as "combined arms" ability, reason same as above.

LOL this. Pershing's HVAP ability "skillshot" sucks so bad I. Firefly's Tulips are actually useful. I use the Pershing all the time because it's a great unit but the only thing that HVAP ability has gotten me is a destroyed Pershing since a Tiger can get off what seems like an additional 2-3 shots before it fires (then misses!).

LOL this. Pershing's HVAP ability "skillshot" sucks so bad I. Firefly's Tulips are actually useful. I use the Pershing all the time because it's a great unit but the only thing that HVAP ability has gotten me is a destroyed Pershing since a Tiger can get off what seems like an additional 2-3 shots before it fires (then misses!).

It used to ignore reload, allowing the Pershing to pull off a double tap.

Now though, its main use is sniping through shotblockers. It goes through anything like the special Jagdtiger, 17 pounder or Pak 43 rounds.