Shocked at how easy Germans are.

dream on.... tank micro: ohh where is the ram button...there you go =)

I'm not sure what patch you're running but T34 ram currently isn't used that much since it doesn't work half the time, and hardly ever works against heavy tanks. T34 and T70 are much more micro intensive than their counterparts since they are pretty fragile in comparison, and also because Germans don't have to worry about a hard hitting AT wielding infantry unit like the Soviets do (PGrens w/ Shrek).

I'm not sure what patch you're running but T34 ram currently isn't used that much since it doesn't work half the time, and hardly ever works against heavy tanks. T34 and T70 are much more micro intensive than their counterparts since they are pretty fragile in comparison, and also because Germans don't have to worry about a hard hitting AT wielding infantry unit like the Soviets do (PGrens w/ Shrek).

what patch are you running m8

Yes t34 and t70s are weak on paper but they come out early enough that, if used defensively until ready to push at the right time, they will own both infantry and put a dent into enemy armor. T70s are cheap enough to rebuild and never lose their usefulness in a 1v1 match

RNG always plays a factor. I just played a game vs Rubbers where my lone t34 was running full speed from a p4 on pripyat winter, both at full health p4 firing first. My t34 got it down to 5% hp before dieing, so I promptly AT naded it for the kill. Keep in mind I was shooting the p4s frontal armor.. he was shooting my rear. :RNG:

Shrecks are so expensive and pgrens so fragile vs t70s/t34s.... pgrens They have to sit in a house and let a tank drive by to get enough off to kill a kiting tank

edit: you might enjoy this game as it was a fun one that kinda demonstrates this post well:

http://www.coh2.org/replays/9734/t34-carnage

I'm not sure what patch you're running but T34 ram currently isn't used that much since it doesn't work half the time, and hardly ever works against heavy tanks. T34 and T70 are much more micro intensive than their counterparts since they are pretty fragile in comparison, and also because Germans don't have to worry about a hard hitting AT wielding infantry unit like the Soviets do (PGrens w/ Shrek).

I'm just kidding

Yes t34 and t70s are weak on paper but they come out early enough that, if used defensively until ready to push at the right time, they will own both infantry and put a dent into enemy armor.

Well, assuming a perfectly balanced early game and map (Typically non-existent in either case) a t34 hits the field around the same time as any german t3 unit. Choosing a t70 means german t3 will be unopposed for a longer period that the t70 ever would have. That "right time" is a very short amount of time that a competent german player can easily close and even outright eliminate.

But the RNG is indeed a huge factor. Probably so much of one that it's hard to play the game competitively. Every match is really no-contest unless both players are both well practiced and are top-tier gamers capable of micromanaging on an extreme level to get any sort of reliability out of their gameplay.

Er, what? Seems to me that means everyone else needs to step up their game.

I don't find the RNG that bothersome, except when it's a really game-changing situation, like a tank missing a halftrack 5x in a row and that sort of thing. More bothersome to me are abilities that are truly overpowered, mostly abilities that can wipe units on retreat (like the Soviet strafe or the Panzerwurfer barrage). If the player has already microed out of it by retreating, it's simply not fair for them to see their squad wiped.

Other stuff like flamenwurfers/scout cars chasing down squads are fair to me, as the player chasing is putting his unit at risk going deep into enemy territory...

The 5 percent chance to get a critical engine damage from atnade/faust.
Atnades not reliably penetrating the front of P4s
Flame weapons criticals are extremely frustrating as well.

I've kind of kept away from this post for a while in order to play Germans and (mainly) Soviets (because otherwise I wait for longer than I can stand in queue.

My observations are that German squads seem to die faster and easier compared to Soviet ones (well duh... they are 4 man squads). This seems to me to place a greater emphasis for the Soviets on support weaponry and in-direct fire as compared to the German direct fire approach. I still don't feel like taking back my statement though that Germans are far easier. Whilst Soviets can begin dominating Germans given time, it seems to be a lot easier to dominate Germans with grenadiers, snipers MGs and mortars (as they are all conveniently in the same building).

Contrast this with Soviets who have to make a choice between often inferior weaponry. However I do feel that having inferior mortars say for the Soviets is kind of justified because if they had something like the fast firing German mortar then they'd be knocking down German squads left right and centre. I still spend most of a game as Soviets completely stressing out throughout the battle, whilst as Germans I seem free to float fuel etc and still comfortably win... though ofcourse I might just be facing noobs. Either way, after giving it a while, I'm still unimpressed by the balance and I often get rather angry at such things as Pgren bundled nades 1 shotting guards and the Ostwind (a unit I despised in both games) just coming out and wrecking my infantry and then just circle strafing my AT guns with impunity... Nor is it very fun when I try T1 and promptly be run over by a FHT... I just am forced to rage...

@ Immortal's thread.

I don't use SU-85 + sniper combo at all now because as you've said it's a bit silly. I'd rather use other strats...

soviet skillset. flanking nading, capping, artylering, mg positioning, teching choises, tank micro.

german skillset. wich units to build, wich upgrades to take, a+clicking.

I have a feeling that you pretty much nailed it.....

I wish I could just go back to the days where I could build two mg42's, two grens, a scout car and have the game won when I bring my first P4 out - fun comp stomps but obviously OP.

I actually think it is harder to play as the germans nowadays. At least that's what it feels like to me. Let your SU sit back and plink away all German armor. German armor has to do all of the flanking. Only frightening unit they have is FHT due to its timing - less of an issue in team games.

Is anybody regularly able to reach T4 as ostheer in 1v1? Never seems like I have the resources so it's pretty much T1 through T3 vs. soviet T2-T3 or T1-T4.

soviet skillset. flanking nading, capping, artylering, mg positioning, teching choises, tank micro.

german skillset. wich units to build, wich upgrades to take, a+clicking.

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  VS

  rafaska

  Undostrescuatro

  panzers pAnZeRs PANZERS!!!!!!!

  by: undostrescuatro map: Langreskaya Winter

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Being ranked in top 100 as germans and creeping up to top 100 as soviets, I find Soviets a much more versatile army (combined arms). But I also find the soviets much more cheesy and gimmicky.. Between oorahs, snares, easymode snipers, rams, fireballs, and tanks that can see for miles, the soviets are a little easier to me. It did take me a while to get use to them (still kind of confused) but this comes from a player who has played primarily Germans since vCOH and never touched panzer elite, brits, or americans. So it took me a little longer to get use to the soviets.

In vCoH I mainly played Germans and Yanks and sometimes PE. I also took me a while to figure out how Soviets work because in the beginning, I just played them as I would play the germans and horribly failed.
Once I figured out the synergies, Soviets became alot easier to play for me.

My observations are that German squads seem to die faster and easier compared to Soviet ones (well duh... they are 4 man squads). This seems to me to place a greater emphasis for the Soviets on support weaponry and in-direct fire as compared to the German direct fire approach. I still don't feel like taking back my statement though that Germans are far easier. Whilst Soviets can begin dominating Germans given time, it seems to be a lot easier to dominate Germans with grenadiers, snipers MGs and mortars (as they are all conveniently in the same building).

That's indeed an important difference. Because of the 4-man squadsize the german weaponteams and units require a bit more babysitting and you are less likely to survive when cought off guard.

After a win streak with germans I was finally pushed onto the Deep Water against some very skilled SU players.

I was totally annihilated for a few games and it was sort of a relief actually. Good play on their sides. So the balancepoint is in there somewhere for everyone for sure.

Looking at the replays I still have to say though, that they used micro far superior to mine. So that sort of confirms my understanding of the german faction as easier - at least when it comes to micro (though maybe not tactics).

Looking at the replays I still have to say though, that they used micro far superior to mine. So that sort of confirms my understanding of the german faction as easier - at least when it comes to micro (though maybe not tactics).

that doesnt support the idea that germans are easier. if you won with inferior micro, that would be different, but you lost with the "OP easy faction". if anything, that just shows the better player will win, even if theyre playing the "hard" faction.

elitest threads like this are getting really old. if germans are so easy, why did andy and omgpop only win when playing soviets?

elitest threads like this are getting really old. if germans are so easy, why did andy and omgpop only win when playing soviets?

I wouldn't try to draw any conclusion from their matchup, they know each other very well and have been training together for SNF, plus they were playing a Sov map and they made some mistakes while playing Ost (omg not capping the map, andy not building a SC to deal with M3s, etc.).
That said I have been watching Andy stream said training sessions and they were both acknowledging that germans are OP.

elitest threads like this are getting really old. if germans are so easy, why did andy and omgpop only win when playing soviets?

I think you are misreading me. I'm not elitist.

I'm not even a competitive player. I'm a casual player down in the thousands, rank wise, and I don't care that much if I win or lose. Winning is better ofc, but losing or getting a big losing streak will never spoil my sleep.

I could care less how factions match up for top 200. I'm talking about how the game runs for casual players like me without super micro. And my conclusion still stands: germans are easier for my kind of players. And I'm not alone.

SgtBulldog: Is this your Steam profile?
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198025676116

If not, what is? Inlight of your claims, especially in another thread demanding that 2v2+ players have played and won 1v1 matches, it is relevant to ask to see them.

Less personal call-outs and more on-topic discussion please.

I could care less how factions match up for top 200. I'm talking about how the game runs for casual players like me without super micro. And my conclusion still stands: germans are easier for my kind of players. And I'm not alone.

Agreed, for casual play I also find German a bit easier especially in 1v1 #agrens or gren spam ftw. In 2v2 its a little more balanced as you can opposite tech as soviets but even this requires more coordination. Generally amongst players I know, myself included, the win rate is better as German. I find that unless I do very well in the early game as soviets I will generally eventually lose unless its an open map or one with choke points like prpyat for soviet ranged play.

All in all I think the main balance changes needed are the vetting which is been looked at. Atm vet 2 units are just too much due to the essentially more than double hp which also builds nicely with german generally stronger late game, Look at replays, for example the recent really good one with Hans 2v2 against sib and ivan on sem winter was it? The german late game totally saved the day, tigers and vetted pgrens, also shows how utterly useless t34's are late game.

I also saw a game the other day, maybe in the SNF qualifying and it took a t70 like 14 shots to kill a vet 2 FHT with an already disabled engine :/
Whenever you get a vet 2 P4 or FHT as german your so happy because you basically know unless you push too much with it its not going to die all game.

High level play is probably a bit more balanced because the pro's can exploit the strengths/weakness's better but as discussed you need a lot of micro/combined arms with all the units and this is what you see when they play.

that doesnt support the idea that germans are easier. if you won with inferior micro, that would be different, but you lost with the "OP easy faction". if anything, that just shows the better player will win, even if theyre playing the "hard" faction.

elitest threads like this are getting really old. if germans are so easy, why did andy and omgpop only win when playing soviets?

Stale metagame breaks easily. In this sense, German players have to rely on soviet (in)ability to micro their units to gauge their own ability. If the Soviet's micro is faulty, a German player is not required to put forth a micro intensive effort. The ball is effectively always in the Soviet's court, so to speak, as far as micro impetus is concerned. Hence, German players are only ever pushed to put forth high level micro skills when up against high level Soviet players, whereas Soviet players always must put forth such an effort in every match.

So in a simple manner of speaking, and especially where tournaments are concerned, Soviet players are much more able to maintain a high level of practice in their gameplay strategies than German players. The Germans must rely on their opponent's level of competitiveness to even begin to gauge their own gameplay for practice. And this is not taking into account any perceived issues with ELO ranking and automatch matchmaking, either.