Cheese units meta: remove or replace?

The rak change imo is boring and uncalled for. Hence like to gather the player base views with this poll.

Like AE, im a fan of rak when viewing top plays

Imo the draw of coh is the creativity allowed to make units with disimilar abilities. Sure this mean balance is not digitally perfect like some ultra competitive eSports. Out of the box, you just need some time to tune performance so that it doesn't stay uncounterable.

True sports competition is never about same vs same. It is about making the best you get.

Hence i vote to reduce performance/cost of cheese units identified instead of just removing it completely.

Like the Scott and pak, perhaps just make auto fire distance much smaller so that counter can hit it.

Its about offering a counter that's not cheesy.

I hate to think all that brainstorm the development went through to create abilities, gets drop away, to be boring but easy balancing

This sets a unexciting outlook for coh3 in the name of competitive eSports imo

The rak changes are called for...

I dont agree with the stat changes themselves... but the rakaten itself is in need of a rework... its stupidly useless as an AT gun... but its a terrifying tank hunter when pack hunting....

The best option wouldve been a rework to a pak 38 with USF AT gun stats...

As for USF do note that it suffers quite hard in the tourneys... sov ukf and okw perform alot better

The rak changes are called for...

I dont agree with the stat changes themselves... but the rakaten itself is in need of a rework... its stupidly useless as an AT gun... but its a terrifying tank hunter when pack hunting....

The best option wouldve been a rework to a pak 38 with USF AT gun stats...

As for USF do note that it suffers quite hard in the tourneys... sov ukf and okw perform alot better

That's my point. Perhaps lowering its damage or movement speed or have an upgrade cost to camo. But leave it as a stealth tank hunter but lousy at gun.

That's my point. Perhaps lowering its damage or movement speed or have an upgrade cost to camo. But leave it as a stealth tank hunter but lousy at gun.

An Army needs a proper AT gun, not a lousy one.

I agree with gbem that at least providing something similar to the USF M1 57mm ATG would be better than whatever is done with the raketen, it just broken at it's core having no gunshield, however situational it might be, and often the projectile collides witb the ground, same problem the Sturmtiger has, that's why nobody bothers with it.

No amount of wishful thinking and addition of gimmicks is going to fix that.

Take the usf gun, paint it blue, remove the pen round ability, copy the soviet camo but instead of reload bonus increase pen and accuracy to around 100 % for the first shoot

tada new pak 38 for okw

Raketten werfer is a superb cheese machine, but a horrible at gun. They now literally nerfed it out of usage, without actually fixing it as an at gun. So there you go.

Remove the cheese. The fact that even the title calls it cheese means it's not right for the game. Replace it with something that can be counted on and is fun for both parties


Side note, maybe give it sprint if it will remain below 60 range just to assist in survival a bit and still keep it unique.

Remove the cheese. The fact that even the title calls it cheese means it's not right for the game. Replace it with something that can be counted on and is fun for both parties


Side note, maybe give it sprint if it will remain below 60 range just to assist in survival a bit and still keep it unique.

The British 6 pounder already has a sprint like ability called evasive action at Vet 1 doesn't it?

But I agree with everything else you said. Reliability over gimmicks.

On the rak, Okw players dont find it cheesy or gimmicky, would prefer to keep as it is without the gun shield or the range, no?

Yet non-okw players consider it unreliable and lousy.

There is a disconnect imo. Those who use it like it, those who dont thinks it is not good and needs to be a standard at gun.

im non-okw player, and i prefer its unique remain, with reduce performance/cost, and not think is cheese.

Sprint as vet ability sounds like a good idea after retreat removal. They're still quite vulnerable with their lack of gun shield and shorter range, even though they have the extra man now.

On the rak, Okw players dont find it cheesy or gimmicky, would prefer to keep as it is without the gun shield or the range, no?

Yet non-okw players consider it unreliable and lousy.

There is a disconnect imo. Those who use it like it, those who dont thinks it is not good and needs to be a standard at gun.

im non-okw player, and i prefer its unique remain, with reduce performance/cost, and not think is cheese.

Gunshield does nothing. It's all a placebo and doesn't actually provide any cover.

There's no disconnect. People always used to complain about its shorter range, its unreliability, and its tendency to get wiped in 1 shot from explosives, partly due to the former two traits. Either people wanted it changed to be more in line with other AT guns, or they were content to abuse it as a tank killing commando squad instead of a real AT gun. Many many people found it both frustrating to play with and to play against, if you wanna sift through the literal years of complaints from both sides have at it.

I dont see okw players requesting buff to rak?
Like i say perhaps make camo cost an ammo upgrade, but keep the ability.

Gunshield does nothing. It's all a placebo and doesn't actually provide any cover.

It doesn't provide cover, but I'm pretty sure the gun shield can block tank shots.

I dont see okw players requesting buff to rak?
Like i say perhaps make camo cost an ammo upgrade, but keep the ability.

I play all factions and am very much looking forward to the rak not being the finest German cheese and instead something I can count on to not be bum rushed while it shoots the ground while using it and not having a death pack of creeping cheddar scouting my lines and sniping my katy/ambulance and retreating away.

A Rak change will be better for all parties except those that like to abuse broken mechanics.

Take the usf gun, paint it blue, remove the pen round ability, copy the soviet camo but instead of reload bonus increase pen and accuracy to around 100 % for the first shoot

tada new pak 38 for okw

Or u could use the soviet m45.. recolor it grey or blue... then call it a pak 36 with the same stats as the USF AT gun
(The M45 really looks like the pak 36)

It doesn't provide cover, but I'm pretty sure the gun shield can block tank shots.

But what people want is like fixing the maxim deathloop. You can't have something which is not there to implement. Other AT guns block shots because the actual model is big enough to block them.

Also a "blocked" shot will still most likely kill the models operating the weapon.

But what people want is like fixing the maxim deathloop. You can't have something which is not there to implement. Other AT guns block shots because the actual model is big enough to block them.

Also a "blocked" shot will still most likely kill the models operating the weapon.

Could toy with a damage modifier then. People arnt talking about fixing issues like that though they are literally asking to keep the unit cheesy and trying to come up with reasons why cheesy is a better route than reliable.

I play all factions and am very much looking forward to the rak not being the finest German cheese and instead something I can count on to not be bum rushed while it shoots the ground while using it and not having a death pack of creeping cheddar scouting my lines and sniping my katy/ambulance and retreating away.

A Rak change will be better for all parties except those that like to abuse broken mechanics.

The thing is what you call cheese?
Are camo units cheese?
Do you consider sniper cheese since you need to countersnipe.
how about units popping inside building to unleash shrek volley?
Rak dies easier, even on retreat. How about we reduce its pen on vet? or its retreat slower? or a delay to fire from camo? So many nice choices.

if you allow rak to walk behind you, either your front lines are too high too open, or the okw player has to lose micro on their other units, sure those high apm pros will do better, but for most, babysitting 1-2 units towards back line needs to be rewarded.

losing a katy and ambulance is not the worse thing. this is a unique choice, asymmetrical tactics and not overpowering with a little tweak.

But what people want is like fixing the maxim deathloop. You can't have something which is not there to implement. Other AT guns block shots because the actual model is big enough to block them.

Also a "blocked" shot will still most likely kill the models operating the weapon.

use another at gun ? just chacge the color of one of them and done pak 38

The thing is what you call cheese?
Are camo units cheese?
Do you consider sniper cheese since you need to countersnipe.
how about units popping inside building to unleash shrek volley?
Rak dies easier, even on retreat. How about we reduce its pen on vet? or its retreat slower? or a delay to fire from camo? So many nice choices.

if you allow rak to walk behind you, either your front lines are too high too open, or the okw player has to lose micro on their other units, sure those high apm pros will do better, but for most, babysitting 1-2 units towards back line needs to be rewarded.

losing a katy and ambulance is not the worse thing. this is a unique choice, asymmetrical tactics and not overpowering with a little tweak.

I'm sorry... Was your fist example really to chose a 360mp unit that can only camo in cover and kills 1 model at a time to a 270mp unit that San cloak in an open fuel and OHK vehicles as a means to justify it? Would you like to perhaps redo that response?

Secondly. Yes. Yes I do think three insta pop Shrek units are bad design and in another thread am arguing such. Know your audience, I'm not exactly new to tree forum.

Raks die easier than snipers on retreat?
X to doubt?

Reducing its pen doesn't do any thing for thfe squishy units I mentioned and losing them can change the outcome of the game in a big way. Also nerfing the units pen is an awful way to adjust the unit and I can't believe you would sooner have a shittier unit and keep the cheese than have a unit that doesn't need cheese. You are advocating for the AT equivalent of how they have treated the maxim such that unless you cheese it it is of no value. That's BAD design.

Also the nice thing about being able to move a camod unit wherever the hell you please is that you can use it to find holes in the enemy line. You can skirt the walls of the map. You are making it seem like you need to be a pro to walk an invisible unit through enemy lines I do it frequently add I'm not even thaet great of a player...