Rant: WTF is with OKW Overwatch doctrines sector assault

Coming from what? all those years you served as a pilot in ww2?

Yes.
I'm literally Winter Soldier.
Don't tell anyone please, because its a secret.

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Have you ever heard of historical documentation and literal videos from planes?

You can't confirm kills and hits from ww2 gun camera footage. That's ridiculous. You can see that their firing AT stuff, but getting actual kills from the cockpit was very difficult, and there's no way in hell you could confirm it from ww2 plane cameras

Long story short loiters should go, strafes should replace them. Mostly because of gameplay reasons

Say whatever you will about the ability of an aircraft to hit a ground target in a single pass, but loiters are 1000% more accurate to the role and capabilities of a close air support mission than a single pass by an aircraft at an exact point on the map at an exact time.

If you want to make a gameplay argument for it, by all means, that's valid, and many loiters feel like fucking cancer, but to argue loiters are somehow less accurate than this mindless rocket pass/strafing run on what might very well be a completely empty patch of ground you're out of your mind. The great thing about prop-driven aircraft is they could loiter (hey, its that word again) around the mission area providing support and dealing damage for a relatively long time.

I should say if anything that the AA capabilities of not only pintle mounted MGs but basically every AA unit in the game are also hilariously overstated, and that ground AA fire was essentially only effective at zoning out or driving away aircraft, and not this shooting P-47s and IL-2 Sturmoviks out of the sky (to say nothing of Ju-87s from the nearly-nonexistent 1944+ Luftwaffe). But obviously AA has to be good in this game for balance reasons, just like .50 cal rounds have to bounce harmlessly off of Luchs light tanks and Panzerfausts only do light damage to tanks.

For CoH3, if they touch on WW2 again, they should really see about making things feel a little less absurd with regards to how all the weapons and mechanics in the game work, and have side armor values so building panthers doesn't automatically end the production of any more medium tanks for the rest of the game.

You can't confirm kills and hits from ww2 gun camera footage. That's ridiculous. You can see that their firing AT stuff, but getting actual kills from the cockpit was very difficult, and there's no way in hell you could confirm it from ww2 plane cameras

Long story short loiters should go, strafes should replace them. Mostly because of gameplay reasons

So, you're trying to say here that whole sub category of WW2 planes that exists up to this day, ground attack planes, were so inefficient that they just kept building and using them?

Seriously, go read up a bit on combat use of IL-2.
Loitering strafes was EXACTLY how it was used, just instead of circling and waiting to be shot down, squadron attacked with every single loop.

It was extremely effective(for soviet standards) against vehicle columns and IL-2 being literally a slow flying tank allowed for that effectiveness while keeping very low pilot casualties.

In one instance during single battle one pilot lost 5 planes and just kept coming back for more.

So, you're trying to say here that whole sub category of WW2 planes that exists up to this day, ground attack planes, were so inefficient that they just kept building and using them?

Seriously, go read up a bit on combat use of IL-2.
Loitering strafes was EXACTLY how it was used, just instead of circling and waiting to be shot down, squadron attacked with every single loop.

It was extremely effective(for soviet standards) against vehicle columns and IL-2 being literally a slow flying tank allowed for that effectiveness while keeping very low pilot casualties.

In one instance during single battle one pilot lost 5 planes and just kept coming back for more.

No, that's not what anybody is saying, he's just acknowledging the fact that WW2 era attack aircraft were not very accurate. I already wrote a very long comment one page back explaining this that I recommend you read and watch the video I mentioned.

Why do you think that the Soviets used so many aircraft in a single attack? One major reason was because they weren't accurate enough to consistently damage convoys without multiple aircraft.

Also the IL-2 was not a flying tank, it only had marginally more armor than the average plane of WW2 which is to say almost none. It had a plate behind the pilot which was standard, and it had some armor protecting the engine. Lastly over 10,000 IL-2s were destroyed in WW2, it was the most destroyed aircraft of WW2 and you wouldn't expect a flying tank to be shot down 5 times in a single battle would you.

So, you're trying to say here that whole sub category of WW2 planes that exists up to this day, ground attack planes, were so inefficient that they just kept building and using them?

That's not even remotely close to what i said. I just said they weren't as accurate as the tracking in this game suggests

Read up yourself, the Brits came out and said their own pilots heavily overestimated their own killcounts of tanks and infantry

The "white panther" test that was mentioned earlier is also a good account of plane accuracy. And that was without any flak shooting at them while they tried to hit it

I agree with Mazianni. If you nerf (or remove) loiters, you have to severely nerf anti-aircraft units as well.

Hand-cranked, visually-aimed AA guns were even more inaccurate than ground-attack planes. As Smiling Tiger insinuates, the only way to be sure to hit something was to have lots of units firing at the same time - both on the ground and in the air.

I don't know how the Soviets organized their ground-attack planes but, the US "cab rank" system operated a lot more like the single pass strafes (with the pilots free to make a second pass if they thought they missed their target). Planes usually didn't loiter in the area looking for targets of opportunity; they were assigned a particular target by a forward observer/liaison officer. If there was more than one target or if the strike was deemed ineffective, additional strikes could be requested. Whether it was made by the same plane usually depended on its fuel and ammo situation.

However, if the game moves to single-pass strafes, they have to target units in the area of attack and not just shoot at a patch of ground regardless of what's there. How effective the strafes are should be addressed by varying the damage. Strafes should not be "hit only if the unit can't move and miss if it moves even the slightest bit", regardless of how "unrealistic" that is. This game is SO unrealistic on so many different levels that "realism" can never really be used to address balance issues (as SkysTheLimit has pointed out to me on more than one occasion).

#BuffStrafeTargeting/NerfStrafeDamage

Realism doesn't matter for balance because it takes 1 shot for tanks to die in real life. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be a relative guide for things in the game.

Like the creeping Rak should've been gone a long time ago. Not only stupid from Gameplay perspective, but camoing an AT gun and walking it thru an open field shouldn't be a viable strategy in a ww2 rts

Then just copy the Soviet one ?

The one that's a plane loiter skill plane, it has such insane high alpha damage

I just played a game where it 60-0'd my IS2 then 90-0'd my IS2 within 4 seconds by itself while I'm hauling ass out of it with my IS2 reversing without engine damage. I assumed first time was just bad RNG combined with basically sustaining some damage, second time I was mentally prepared for him to do the same thing but it died 100-0.

How is this thing able to do so much damage in one loiter, I get its an expensive ability and if it killed a t34-76 in 4 seconds I'd be frustrated but not this baffled.

There's no time to even get out of it, is there a catch I'm missing? If there's no counter play this ridiculous ability needs to be nerfed because it's doing ridiculous damage to the tankiest allied tank just point and click.

step 1: get anti air haftrack

step 2: play OKW yourself and eceperience the weaknesses

I agree with Mazianni. If you nerf (or remove) loiters, you have to severely nerf anti-aircraft units as well.

Hand-cranked, visually-aimed AA guns were even more inaccurate than ground-attack planes. As Smiling Tiger insinuates, the only way to be sure to hit something was to have lots of units firing at the same time - both on the ground and in the air.

However, if the game moves to single-pass strafes, they have to target units in the area of attack and not just shoot at a patch of ground regardless of what's there. How effective the strafes are should be addressed by varying the damage. Strafes should not be "hit only if the unit can't move and miss if it moves even the slightest bit", regardless of how "unrealistic" that is. This game is SO unrealistic on so many different levels that "realism" can never really be used to address balance issues (as SkysTheLimit has pointed out to me on more than one occasion).

#BuffStrafeTargeting/NerfStrafeDamage

Anti aircraft guns didn't need to be accurate to be effective, they only needed to ruin the moral of attacking planes. The Chieftain explains this in his video "When Your Tank is Attacked by Aircraft" and even despite their lack of accuracy, anti aircraft guns were still responsible for shooting down many planes in WW2.

As for targeted single pass strafes they should require constant vision on the target to be accurate and only be marginally accurate without it. I don't think that an undodgeable strafe would be very fair so I think that there should be only a certain range where units can be hit beyond where the strafe was called in.

As for targeted single pass strafes they should require constant vision on the target to be accurate and only be marginally accurate without it. I don't think that an undodgeable strafe would be very fair so I think that there should be only a certain range where units can be hit beyond where the strafe was called in.

I agree but, I'd like to see a certain amount of micro required (such as turning instead of moving in a straight line) to avoid getting hit if the unit is still in the target area when the plane arrives. Better players would be well out of the area by that time. Strafes should be most effective against players who aren't paying attention.

camoing an AT gun and walking it thru an open field shouldn't be a viable strategy in a ww2 rts

Amen! No camo should work when a unit is moving, ever.

Impossible. On average, the Stuka AT planes deal about 250-500 damage per pass (both planes combined). And that is on a stationary target. If the target moves, the Stukas will usually miss more (but that depends on their angle of approach).

They both need to be hitting the IS-2's rear armor to deal that maximum of ~500dmg, because they have 180/170/160 penetration (IS-2 armor is 375) and deal less damage on deflection, which is highly unlikely on the first pass given that the planes start on opposite ends.

Since the IS-2's health is 1080, that means they can deal a maximum of 25%-50% damage to it. With 50% being the most ideal circumstances, only possible on a second or third pass, and with 25% being the average damage it deals on the first pass. And again, tested on a stationary IS-2, so expect damage to be even less if it's moving.

So TLDR, unless a replay shows otherwise, Sector Assault can not have done more than 50% damage in a single run to your IS-2 and something else must have damaged it at the same time or circumstances were not as you presented them.



The ability requires ground forces to spot enemies or it will not target anything.

Here is a IS2 taken below 50% by 2 passes, the schwer does a very minor contribution, it looks around 30% health after these two passes, I highly doubt the schwer contributed 20%..

https://clips.twitch.tv/RefinedStupidAsteriskTriHard

This ability almost always deals maximum damage within the first 10 seconds and rarely does limited damage. It probably is OP.



The math does not add up. Something is funky with this ability.

You can't confirm kills and hits from ww2 gun camera footage. That's ridiculous. You can see that their firing AT stuff, but getting actual kills from the cockpit was very difficult, and there's no way in hell you could confirm it from ww2 plane cameras

Long story short loiters should go, strafes should replace them. Mostly because of gameplay reasons

+1000

Strafes are more interesting gameplay-wise for both sides and can be less frustrating for users since it'll (mostly) actually do what you tell it to and for opponents because there's not a bunch of planes flying around that you either have AA for or don't and have to go afk for a minute.

Here is a IS2 taken below 50% by 2 passes, the schwer does a very minor contribution, it looks around 30% health after these two passes, I highly doubt the schwer contributed 20%..

https://clips.twitch.tv/RefinedStupidAsteriskTriHard

This ability almost always deals maximum damage within the first 10 seconds and rarely does limited damage. It probably is OP.



The math does not add up. Something is funky with this ability.

It was... uh it was clearly the luchs that did the other 20% or so. Definitely, yeah it was definitely that luchs.

Here is a IS2 taken below 50% by 2 passes, the schwer does a very minor contribution, it looks around 30% health after these two passes, I highly doubt the schwer contributed 20%..

https://clips.twitch.tv/RefinedStupidAsteriskTriHard

This ability almost always deals maximum damage within the first 10 seconds and rarely does limited damage. It probably is OP.



The math does not add up. Something is funky with this ability.

TBH, it looks around 35/40% based on the HP bar and the location of the vet1 star.
The IS2 already lost 5%-7.5% just before killing the Stuka. Right before the planes comes, you can see it getting rear shots (check the crits) from the Schwer. I don't think that the P2 did anything at all.
IIRC the Flak deals 40dmg per shot, which should be around 4% of the IS2 HP per pen. So we can say it lost a bit more than 10% HP.

His estimation might be a little under, but is more than likely that the IS2 received around the 500dmg mark.

I think it's a matter of just running several test to see how much dmg it's doing on avg, on static/move vehicles and see if something is wonky.