that's false, rifle with bars will out dps penal at all ranges bot vet 0 and 3
If you want to look at another comparable unit, Rifles do less damage than Penal models at every range above 9(where cover works) but cost 1 mp more for 3% better RA. Even with BAR upgrades and at vet 3 Rifles do less dps than a penal squad without an upgrade until they are at ~5 range, despite the 120 muni investment of bars. This is Similar to their comparison with grens who also do more damage per man until they are at range 10 where rifles to the exact same damage as 1 gren, who has .9 RA to rifles .97 at vet 0.
Rifles seem to be decent at every range except super cqb compared to other units like grens and penals, which doesn't help to trade cost effectively. Man for man or cost for cost they trade worse as a result of the dps curve and upgrades that are not as cost effective. It seems like rifles are a bigger issue than volks. They can win the fights but seem less efficient than other similar units, who can be more effective at normal cover to cover engagement ranges.
Edit: Holy fk: rifles go from doing 39 DPS at range 10 to 64 damage at range 0 vet 3 full upgrades. Their power spike is insane when face hugging, thats kinda useless most of the time though, Shocks don't even do any extra damage closer than 10 range
Riflemen need a buff or Volks need a nerf?
12 Aug 2019, 22:08 PM
#181
Posts: 4474
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
12 Aug 2019, 22:10 PM
#182
Posts: 818
that's false, rifle with bar will out dps penal at all ranges bot vet 0 and 3
The stats I used are
Range 10 vet 3 penals do 6.88*6 41.28
Range 10 vet 3 rifles do (6.01*3) rifles + (10.5 x 2) Bars = 39.03 dps
Which of my numbers are wrong? Where would I be able to find the correct ones
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12 Aug 2019, 22:16 PM
#183
Posts: 4474
1.69 x 3 + 4 x 2 = 13,1 x 2 bar
1,69 x4 + 4 = 10,78 x 1 bar
1.8 x 6 = 10,8 penal
at mid and close range the bar gains a straight advantage at vet 0
penal get more offensive vet tho (rifle get more def one)
so they will deal more damage than rifle with bars until close range but have worse RA
1,69 x4 + 4 = 10,78 x 1 bar
1.8 x 6 = 10,8 penal
at mid and close range the bar gains a straight advantage at vet 0
penal get more offensive vet tho (rifle get more def one)
so they will deal more damage than rifle with bars until close range but have worse RA
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
12 Aug 2019, 22:16 PM
#184
Posts: 1979
no they are the same stop spreading misinformation i already posted the dps chart
sturm don't have sand bag cause they are over burned with roles, i tried to address this with a rework hopefully the mod team does something similar
yes you have... volks have slightly higher DPS at long range according to cruzz...
12 Aug 2019, 22:21 PM
#185
Posts: 4474
and they have 0.03 less RA, so they become equal
yes you have... volks have slightly higher DPS at long range according to cruzz...
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
12 Aug 2019, 22:23 PM
#186
Posts: 1979
and they have 0.03 less RA, so they become equal
great... now why can volks make sandbags and rifles cant?
and why are they overtly superior to cons and grens... especially cons considering how the maxim is but a joke?
12 Aug 2019, 22:32 PM
#187
Posts: 4474
great... now why can volks make sandbags and rifles cant?
and why are they overtly superior to cons and grens... especially cons considering how the maxim is but a joke?
sturm don't have sand bag cause they are over burned with roles, i tried to address this with a rework hopefully the mod team does something similar
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
12 Aug 2019, 22:34 PM
#188
Posts: 818
1.69 x 3 + 4 x 2 = 13,1 x 2 bar
1,69 x4 + 4 = 10,78 x 1 bar
1.8 x 6 = 10,8 penal
at mid and close range the bar gains a straight advantage
Gotcha, Double bar vet 0 rifles will be better, Vet 3 penals however do slightly more dps dps range 10+ because of their excellent accuracy bonuses and extra man.
Addtionally, if you move along the dps curve penals don't lose ground midrange
range 15, Penals do 3.7*6 = 22.2
range 15 rifles do (6.5*2) +(3.4*3)= 23.2
That's only 1 dps difference where as range 35 it was 1.3.
It's like a weird dps curve I just didn't expect b/c it looks high on the left range 0, but rifles and bars for whatever reason just aren't as good at mid range as you might expect.
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12 Aug 2019, 22:44 PM
#189
Posts: 4474
well they have a jump at range 9 or less where they become CC weapons, they aer basically a mix bwtween an cc weapon and an LMG , having a pretty flat but good mid to lang range dps but having spike after range 10
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
12 Aug 2019, 22:47 PM
#190
Posts: 818
well they have a jump at range 9 or less where they become CC weapons, they aer basically a mix bwtween an cc weapon and an LMG , having a pretty flat but good mid to lang range dps but having spike after range 10
Ya it’s like kinda weird bc they should either dig in at max range or get into a knife fight nothing in between
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12 Aug 2019, 22:50 PM
#191
Posts: 556
270 MP Rifles.
Remove the smoke from RE.
Give Rifles sandbag at Vet1.
And for the love of god nerf the Pack Howitzer.
Easy.
Remove the smoke from RE.
Give Rifles sandbag at Vet1.
And for the love of god nerf the Pack Howitzer.
Easy.
Grens are finally good.
12 Aug 2019, 23:48 PM
#192
Posts: 783
I it is actually Rear Echelons and Sturmpio that both need adjustments. Both to be adjusted and defined more clearly.
Since these 2 particularly engineers are neither purchased willingly anymore (since they suck, mid and late but they are only good at repairs and for some mini to no support) unless the player is to forced acquire them.
Why, because they are the starting units which influences the game and strategy. Look to that!
Do not debate about Riflemen and Volks since they both are clearly fine in their capabilities.
Since these 2 particularly engineers are neither purchased willingly anymore (since they suck, mid and late but they are only good at repairs and for some mini to no support) unless the player is to forced acquire them.
Why, because they are the starting units which influences the game and strategy. Look to that!
Do not debate about Riflemen and Volks since they both are clearly fine in their capabilities.
I enjoy Coh2. I want this game to be balanced as it can possibly be for
ukf
usf
okw
soviets
ostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. 
This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
ukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
12 Aug 2019, 23:51 PM
#193
Posts: 4474
RE are actually used a lot, especially thanks to new doc
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
12 Aug 2019, 23:58 PM
#194
Posts: 783
RE are actually used a lot, especially thanks to new doc
Well, it is only doc that makes them viable.
Same for Feuersturm doctrine which makes the Sturmpio a more viable supportive unit.
Without these doctrines (that provides them with proper equipment), rest-assured, they are not a self-sustaining nor supportive unit without them.
These 2 Engineers kind of miss out some relevance as well as reliability on its own.
I enjoy Coh2. I want this game to be balanced as it can possibly be forukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced.
This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
ukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
13 Aug 2019, 06:49 AM
#195
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
no they are the same stop spreading misinformation i already posted the dps chart
sturm don't have sand bag cause they are over burned with roles, i tried to address this with a rework hopefully the mod team does something similar
You are the one spreading misinformation. Volks have sanbags and if you don't use them that's your problem.
If we look at vanilla Riflemen vs vanilla Volks = volks win with sandbags
If we look at tech1 Riflemen vs tech1 Volks = volks still win with sandbags, flamnade and STG
We could also check the stat vet1 riflemen vs vet1 Volks but I'm pretty sure that here again volks win.
For the rifle to win, you have to add weapon unlock, grenade unlock and equip 2 BARs to finally get riflemen dominating volks accordingly to their price.
You should really stop with your on-paper theorycrafting, its getting boring to read.
13 Aug 2019, 07:01 AM
#196
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
sturm don't have sand bag cause they are over burned with roles, i tried to address this with a rework hopefully the mod team does something similar
Can't quite remember the arguments of that thread anymore.
I use Sturmpios early game as a pure assault squad and to drop a med crate if I go Mechanized, and then they transition into a repair squad.
If you run forwards with a sweeper and deactivate when your in the enemy lines for more close range DPS, they can do minesweeping and fighting at the same time with a bit micro.
They're also mine layers.
That's like completely normal? OST Pioniere do the same stuff, but they're OSTs only source of sandbags. They also double as recon due to sight range. Royal Engineers are close range fighters, sweepers, mine layers and repair squad at the same time as well. They can't build sand bags but are the only snare that UKF has. Also they're the only possibility to build emplacements that UKF is/was build around.
I do understand that due to the price, OKW often has only one Sturmpionier, while other factions have two. That's why OKW get's a non-doc repair upgrade on Mechanized.
13 Aug 2019, 07:35 AM
#197
Posts: 2066
Because brits have much lower infantry presence then USK and penals are not only most expensive mainline inf at 300mp, they also come latest, are always outnumbered and have worst scaling, yes, they have good vet, but they don't get weapon upgrades and their RA vet is extremely low compared to any other inf in game.
IS might be overperforming out of cover compared to their original intended dynamics, but that's addressed next patch if I understood correctly, penals are pure L2P issue.
Are they going to address the other problems with UKF whilst fixing tommies? Like lackluster suppression on mg, no real garrison clearing tools, having to rely on immobile mortar pit, comet being a more expensive OKW p4 with only more armor and worse anti infantry performance? Otherwise that faction will be on death row, because they crutch on nothing but tommies. Tourney showed that too, tommies getting nuked by double stuka and Brits could do nothing.
Kappa
13 Aug 2019, 09:27 AM
#198
Posts: 556
no real garrison clearing tools
Agreed.
having to rely on immobile mortar pit
Again agreed.
Like lackluster suppression on mg
Definently a bad statement. Vickers is almost on par with MG42 in terms of arc while putting down a considerable suppression and dealing the best damage in mg (damage part is right right ?)
comet being a more expensive OKW p4 with only more armor and worse anti infantry performance?
I am actually all in for this. Just nerf the Curchills absurd amount of HP and transfer some of that power to Comet. And the thing is hammer is lackluster compared to anvil other than the tanks.
tommies getting nuked by double stuka
Well that is the only real response to a Tommie blob running down everything except the mgs. (Which okw can't reach till t1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEQpm9A8uN4
And please just watch this game. And see how much time, efford and resources it takes to take down a proper simcity even a player like HelpingHans. Until seing him like that I was okay-ish with Brits. The delay and resource bleed that faction put you on is insane.
After all I would really like to see Comet buffed and IS nerfed while having their snare on the IS.
Grens are finally good.
13 Aug 2019, 10:21 AM
#199
Posts: 1979
sturm don't have sand bag cause they are over burned with roles, i tried to address this with a rework hopefully the mod team does something similar
and cons/grens being unceremoniously raped by volks for 10mp is validated by your changes somehow?
13 Aug 2019, 10:30 AM
#200
Posts: 2066
Definently a bad statement. Vickers is almost on par with MG42 in terms of arc while putting down a considerable suppression and dealing the best damage in mg (damage part is right right ?)
Hm I don't find it that way personally, I feel it is far removed from mg42 level. It does have a lot of damage, but I rather see the damage go and have better suppression, meaning you don't have to rely on tommies for everything.
I am actually all in for this. Just nerf the Curchills absurd amount of HP and transfer some of that power to Comet. And the thing is hammer is lackluster compared to anvil other than the tanks.
Yeah agreed. I see no reason to go comet when churchill with its 15 million hp, smoke, good armor, grenade throwing can do it all for a little less speed when moving around.
Well that is the only real response to a Tommie blob running down everything except the mgs. (Which okw can't reach till t1)
Yes again agreed! A natural response to say the least. But it does show the utter state of UKF. As soon as this happened in tourney play, the UKF faction was basically useless. The only factor going for it at the moment is tommies lol...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEQpm9A8uN4
And please just watch this game. And see how much time, efford and resources it takes to take down a proper simcity even a player like HelpingHans. Until seing him like that I was okay-ish with Brits. The delay and resource bleed that faction put you on is insane.
I know, it still has a lot of abusive strats and units, but they are again a symptom of the decent design UKF has, but the horrible units (in both senses of the word) that are in that roster.
After all I would really like to see Comet buffed and IS nerfed while having their snare on the IS.
Same. Don't forget churchill nerf if comet is buffed, but not to nerf it too harshly.
Kappa
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