PanzerFusiliers way too combat effective

It seems a little ridiculous that Panzerfusiliers can get 3X G43, 1X Pshreck, have grenade+at snare (with long range), have scouting flares, sprint, and extended sight range while being a 6 man highly cost effective unit. so now the PanzerFusiliers can scout out MGs to avoid while murdering tanks and infantry alike. There is absolutely NO advantage to not getting an army of 5 or more panzerfusiliers at this point. Is this how relic intended it to work or is the 1XPshreck upgrade after the g43 just a bug?

Edit: this was fixed the day before this post was made.

I'm pretty sure that is just a bug, and one that I thought was already patched out.

TBH I'd be fine with them having all they have right now, except for them getting double shreks for 280mp/100mun. A single Pfusilier squad with double shreks means the end of allied light vehicle play, as two shreks will do 240 damage a volley, enough to instantly kill all of the lighter vehicles. Light tanks, the SU-76M and the AEC, assuming no other damage, would survive at or just under half health, and the halftracks and upgraded m20 would have only a sliver of health remaining.

This high damage combined with great penetration stats make them a credible threat into the lategame, unlike the generally equally priced bazookas, PIATs, etc.

To clarify, a single Panzerfusilier squad with double shreks is more potent than a Raketenwerfer in every manner but range and max range accuracy. (160 damage vs 240 damage).

Further comparison:
Double shreks (240 damage) (pen 160,170,180)
Double elite bazookas (200 damage) (pen 140,150,160)
Double normal bazookas (160 damage) (pen 110,120,130)
Double PIAT (200 damage) (pen 110,116,130)
Double PTRS-41 (80 damage) (pen 70,85,100)

This may be acceptable with the panzergrenadiers since their cost generally prohibits their use as AT infantry (although this is not to say that they cannot be extremely effective in this role...), but with Panzerfusiliers it's a no-brainer. Generally speaking it would be preferable if Panzershrek upgrades were all dropped down to 1 shrek / 60mun or something of that nature. They're the best handheld AT in the game, and might as well cost like it.

I'm pretty sure that is just a bug, and one that I thought was already patched out.


This may be acceptable with the panzergrenadiers since their cost generally prohibits their use as AT infantry (although this is not to say that they cannot be extremely effective in this role...), but with Panzerfusiliers it's a no-brainer. Generally speaking it would be preferable if Panzershrek upgrades were all dropped down to 1 shrek / 60mun or something of that nature. They're the best handheld AT in the game, and might as well cost like it.

wholeheartedly agree, its kinda stupid that if I got 2 rifles with 200 muni worth of a AT they cant kill a puma in one volley yet 2 Panzerfusiliers that cost the same manpower cost can get 200 muni for almost instakills on allied tanks and instadeath for light vehicles

I haven't played Okw with fusiliers in 2 days. If the g43/shreck hybrid annihilator was fixed in that time then thats great news

I'm pretty sure that is just a bug, and one that I thought was already patched out.

TBH I'd be fine with them having all they have right now, except for them getting double shreks for 280mp/100mun. A single Pfusilier squad with double shreks means the end of allied light vehicle play, as two shreks will do 240 damage a volley, enough to instantly kill all of the lighter vehicles. Light tanks, the SU-76M and the AEC, assuming no other damage, would survive at or just under half health, and the halftracks and upgraded m20 would have only a sliver of health remaining.

This high damage combined with great penetration stats make them a credible threat into the lategame, unlike the generally equally priced bazookas, PIATs, etc.

To clarify, a single Panzerfusilier squad with double shreks is more potent than a Raketenwerfer in every manner but range and max range accuracy. (160 damage vs 240 damage).

Further comparison:
Double shreks (240 damage) (pen 160,170,180)
Double elite bazookas (200 damage) (pen 140,150,160)
Double normal bazookas (160 damage) (pen 110,120,130)
Double PIAT (200 damage) (pen 110,116,130)
Double PTRS-41 (80 damage) (pen 70,85,100)

This may be acceptable with the panzergrenadiers since their cost generally prohibits their use as AT infantry (although this is not to say that they cannot be extremely effective in this role...), but with Panzerfusiliers it's a no-brainer. Generally speaking it would be preferable if Panzershrek upgrades were all dropped down to 1 shrek / 60mun or something of that nature. They're the best handheld AT in the game, and might as well cost like it.

if Pfussies could get 1 shrek, people will just blob them as they would become AI +AT, but with double shrek, ther AI is a very bad. Your AT comparison takes no account of rate of fire and accuracy. Finally, according to you double PZshrek on pfussie is OP because it comes on a 280mp unit while u say its balanced on a 340mp unit. But its okay when a 200mp unit like rear echelon can equip zooks and become an AT squad or even a RM squad at 280mp can not only become an AT squad but also has a snare.

if Pfussies could get 1 shrek, people will just blob them as they would become AI +AT, but with double shrek, ther AI is a very bad. Your AT comparison takes no account of rate of fire and accuracy. Finally, according to you double PZshrek on pfussie is OP because it comes on a 280mp unit while u say its balanced on a 340mp unit. But its okay when a 200mp unit like rear echelon can equip zooks and become an AT squad or even a RM squad at 280mp can not only become an AT squad but also has a snare.

if you are fighting a opponent with skill usually its the first volley of AT that hits before the tank pulls away so that makes the high burst damage of the Pshreck alot more useful especially against weaker allied armor. Also I think its quite nonsensical to say that 2 zooks on riflemen or rears is anywhere near the same level as Pfusiliers with 2 shreck. As the shreck has more damage and pen. Also you could easily get units like Obers to cover all you AI needs while 1 or 2 squads of Pfusiliers beat away all allied mediums. meanwhile as the USF you are limited to only rifles if you didnt pick an elite inf commander

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p6

See latest hotfix.

if you are fighting a opponent with skill usually its the first volley of AT that hits before the tank pulls away so that makes the high burst damage of the Pshreck alot more useful especially against weaker allied armor. Also I think its quite nonsensical to say that 2 zooks on riflemen or rears is anywhere near the same level as Pfusiliers with 2 shreck. As the shreck has more damage and pen. Also you could easily get units like Obers to cover all you AI needs while 1 or 2 squads of Pfusiliers beat away all allied mediums. meanwhile as the USF you are limited to only rifles if you didnt pick an elite inf commander

Thats if the shrek hits and after the damage its was a longer reload giving you time to react. Also they haven't got snares allowing you to escape easily and would allow ur meds to do crushing since thers no snares. Point i'm trying to make is both units have pro's and con's and which is better is situational.

Further comparison:
Double shreks (240 damage) (pen 160,170,180)
Double elite bazookas (200 damage) (pen 140,150,160)
Double normal bazookas (160 damage) (pen 110,120,130)
Double PIAT (200 damage) (pen 110,116,130)
Double PTRS-41 (80 damage) (pen 70,85,100)

This may be acceptable with the panzergrenadiers since their cost generally prohibits their use as AT infantry (although this is not to say that they cannot be extremely effective in this role...), but with Panzerfusiliers it's a no-brainer. Generally speaking it would be preferable if Panzershrek upgrades were all dropped down to 1 shrek / 60mun or something of that nature. They're the best handheld AT in the game, and might as well cost like it.

u completely and conveniently forgot reload speed, panzer shreck have 50% more reload time than zook and piat
and the bad accuracy they have

u completely and conveniently forgot reload speed, panzer shreck have 50% more reload time than zook and piat
and the bad accuracy they have

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I'd say Elite Bazookas and Schrecks are on an equal level, with Elite Bazooka's trading alpha strike damage and some pen for much better reload.

Normal Bazookas are fine because you can put them on a cheap squad.

The PTRS has a different role to handheld AT rockets with its much better accuracy, longer range and being available on squads that still have decent AI. Deflection damage keeps it somewhat relevant once the enemy light vehicles get replaced by tanks.

PIAT's are worse Bazookas on a faction that has no drastic need of them.

Both PFs and Volks are way too good so are JLI. I cannot for the life of me understand why the devs and balance folks keep insisting on giving OKW budget priced units with comperable or better preformance than Allied units. They do this then handicap the ability of Allied factions to control these blobs by reducing suppression on all Allied MGs. Seriously? USF doesn't even get any suppression for like the fist 8 minutes of the game.

I find AT pfusies to be more or less fine. G43 pfusies, on the other hand, are a pain in the ass though. They've got almost every good infantry quality available all rolled into one unit. They lose very little DPS on the move since they get 3 G43s, are good at all ranges, have 6 men squads, have flares for recon, sprint at vet5, and come immediately at min0 (without G43s ofc) so you don't have to handicap yourself to be able to make them later.

They get balanced by bad early game. Late game they are a big upgrade over Volks but not too OP at all. Balance team did a good job with them IMO.

u completely and conveniently forgot reload speed, panzer shreck have 50% more reload time than zook and piat
and the bad accuracy they have

Reload 5.75 vs 7.75. Two second longer reload for a massive damage and penetration advantage simply isn't a big tradeoff, especially since, as has been stated already, the initial damage is guaranteed to be enough to push off or kill nearly any vehicle in the first volley.

As for accuracy; the Panzershrek has superior accuracy at close range and mid range, with only slightly inferior accuracy at max range, so I don't know what you were going for there.

Bazooka 0.063 / 0.048 / 0.034 (Note elite bazookas have exactly the same accuracy profile)
Panzershreck 0.069 / 0.052 / 0.028

The 40% accuracy bonus Pfusiliers gets at Vet 2 negates that disadvantage completely as well. Compare Riflemen 30% at Vet 3, Rear Echelons 20% at Vet 1. Just for fun, Sturmpios get a 40% accuracy buff as well, at Vet 4, with Panzergrenadiers getting a wierd 16.7% at Vet 2 and then 20% at Vet 3, for a total of 36.7%.

For fun, a post-vet comparison with the absolute highest accuracy bonuses available for faction

Bazooka 0.0819 / 0.0624 / 0.0442 (Riflemen Vet 3)
Panzershreck 0.0966 / 0.0728 / 0.0392 (Panzerfusiliers Vet 2)
Panzershreck 0.094323 / 0.071084 / 0.038276 (Panzergrens Vet 3)

if Pfussies could get 1 shrek, people will just blob them as they would become AI +AT, but with double shrek, ther AI is a very bad. Your AT comparison takes no account of rate of fire and accuracy. Finally, according to you double PZshrek on pfussie is OP because it comes on a 280mp unit while u say its balanced on a 340mp unit. But its okay when a 200mp unit like rear echelon can equip zooks and become an AT squad or even a RM squad at 280mp can not only become an AT squad but also has a snare.

If Bazookas on RM or even RE were worth the munitions maybe this would be a valid point. For an AT weapon, however, they are exceedingly bad at tackling tanks, due to both low damage (deflection damage as well) and low penetration. On the topic of accuracy, they have worse accuracy as well. So instead you will have a unit which is useless versus both infantry and armored vehicles. For this reason, even dumping 100mun of bazookas on a 200mp RE squad is a questionable decision. Mun better spent AT-wise on mines (even the RE 80dmg stun ones) or AP ammo for the AT gun / Jackson, which must instead shoulder the AT work of the faction. For this reason most of the time you see bazookas it's the retarded LT zook upgrade, and only because it is the only AT the LT tech can get at all.

Only elite bazookas are in any way useful at the armor stage, and mostly only on recon support paratroopers, since they get to cloak and lay mines as well. Triple zook rangers can be good if you have 150 munitions to dump, I suppose. At that stage they can actually approach or possibly exceed Panzershreck effectiveness, at the cost of all AI power, of course.

And as for the AI / AT trade, I would have the single Shrek upgrade would still lock out G43s, obviously. So if you want better AI, you'd need another Pfusilier squad, just like now. The fact the AT fusiliers can keep an extra fusilier kar is far better than them having double shreks lol.

Also it's stupid that 3 g43s somehow only takes one weapon slot. Got a BAR on my pfusies the other day and hoo boy.

The 40% accuracy bonus Pfusiliers gets at Vet 2 negates that disadvantage completely as well. Compare Riflemen 30% at Vet 3, Rear Echelons 20% at Vet 1. Just for fun, Sturmpios get a 40% accuracy buff as well, at Vet 4, with Panzergrenadiers getting a wierd 16.7% at Vet 2 and then 20% at Vet 3, for a total of 36.7%.

Just a small clarification here:
Panzergrenadiere had 40% bonus at vet 3 previously. Part of the Panzergrenadier buff apart from them coming earlier was to split the bonus equally to vet 2 and vet 3. The accuracy bonus is not additive, but multiplicative, making 1,167*1,2 = 1,4004 bonus in total at vet 3, which is almost equal to the 40% they got before that. It may look weird at first, but makes sense at second glance.

Also it's stupid that 3 g43s somehow only takes one weapon slot. Got a BAR on my pfusies the other day and hoo boy.

3 g 43 are almost the same as 1 bar

Just a small clarification here:
Panzergrenadiere had 40% bonus at vet 3 previously. Part of the Panzergrenadier buff apart from them coming earlier was to split the bonus equally to vet 2 and vet 3. The accuracy bonus is not additive, but multiplicative, making 1,167*1,2 = 1,4004 bonus in total at vet 3, which is almost equal to the 40% they got before that. It may look weird at first, but makes sense at second glance.

I had no idea that veterancy bonuses worked like that. I mean, it makes more sense than having this weird triple decimal bonus out there, but sort of challenges my existing conception of how vet works.

I thought it would multiply against the result of the stat as it exists with the previous veterancy already applied to it.

Is it true for other bonuses as well? Like RA?

I had no idea that veterancy bonuses worked like that. I mean, it makes more sense than having this weird triple decimal bonus out there, but sort of challenges my existing conception of how vet works.

I thought it would multiply against the result of the stat as it exists with the previous veterancy already applied to it.

Is it true for other bonuses as well? Like RA?

Generally, you can assume that everything is multiplied with very rare exceptions.

For the sake of completeness:
Theoretically, there are multiple operators that can be applied (in the editor there are "add", "multiply", "multiply_add" etc. I honestly don't know the difference between the two latter ones). I'm not totally sure how reload buffs are handled, maybe I'll look it up tomorrow. To make everything more confusing, there apparently are instances like the "combined arms" ability of USF, where the buff from the ability completely replaces all other similar buffs.

If Bazookas on RM or even RE were worth the munitions maybe this would be a valid point. For an AT weapon, however, they are exceedingly bad at tackling tanks, due to both low damage (deflection damage as well) and low penetration. On the topic of accuracy, they have worse accuracy as well. So instead you will have a unit which is useless versus both infantry and armored vehicles. For this reason, even dumping 100mun of bazookas on a 200mp RE squad is a questionable decision. Mun better spent AT-wise on mines (even the RE 80dmg stun ones) or AP ammo for the AT gun / Jackson, which must instead shoulder the AT work of the faction. For this reason most of the time you see bazookas it's the retarded LT zook upgrade, and only because it is the only AT the LT tech can get at all.

Only elite bazookas are in any way useful at the armor stage, and mostly only on recon support paratroopers, since they get to cloak and lay mines as well. Triple zook rangers can be good if you have 150 munitions to dump, I suppose. At that stage they can actually approach or possibly exceed Panzershreck effectiveness, at the cost of all AI power, of course.

And as for the AI / AT trade, I would have the single Shrek upgrade would still lock out G43s, obviously. So if you want better AI, you'd need another Pfusilier squad, just like now. The fact the AT fusiliers can keep an extra fusilier kar is far better than them having double shreks lol.

Can't agree with You on echelons and bazookas. They are great. Don't expect them to deal most damage. With Usf you will have an at gun/guns, some tank/tanks plus various squads with bazookas. All of this will deter vehicles and if all these units focus on a tank this 'silly'exhrlon bazooka will be the shot that will finish off a tank. The answer is density of at fire, not one squad.