Any consideration to reduce the RNG effects in COE2?

Just wondering if Relic is considering lessoning the RNG effects in this otherwise great game? I know many have asked this same question in the past.

Way too many times have I left a game feeling <strongly> that I either won, or lost, due to some extra-bad luck. After putting in a hard-fought hour-long game, I don't want to win or loose due to a few extra-lucky shots.

I have played ~500 games of StarCraft over the past 15 years. I never once left a game feeling this way. It was ALWAYS the better played game that won. I would say ~25% of my games of COH2 ends up in 'rage' due to an entire squad going down with one grenade, or a my T34 missing several shots in a row while the opponent's P4 wipes my T34 out, ...at a critical point in the game. And somehow, it also really seems to come in sets of bad luck. Its not just one or two events typically. Realistic? Maybe, I don't really know. Fun? No, not nearly as much as the more deterministic combat of a game like SC. At least not from a competitive POV.

Relic - pls consider reducing the RNG effects. Seems quite a number of other folks feel similarly. Who knows, maybe such a move would bring more folks to COE2, at least more of the competitive types. Because otherwise, COE2 is really a great game.

The thing is that all the core mechanics of CoH revolve around rng. Tanks, Artillery, squad based fights, grenades. There are no laser weapons where it would be believable that a 100% hit rate exists. The authenticity requires hit and miss chances, as well as relatively long reload and cooldown times on guns etc.
Infantry fights are the ones that follow the deterministic concept the most, due to the high sample rate (=shots) that are needed to kill a model. But then again it's purely luck if your all members of squad target a single entity model or if they spread their damage. This could only be circumvented if soldiers could be controlled on a single entity level, which would abolish the squad based fighting tactics, retreating, most of unit preservation and the veterancy core mechanic.
There are some levers to push and a lot has been done, for example spreading out damage profiles of AoE damage, refining squad spacing etc. Also there could be a "manual reload" mechanic for machine guns and so on.

Irrespective of the side you are standing on:
If you want a more star craft-like gameplay, you need to play starcraft. The WW2-time frame does not really allow for a completely deterministic gameplay in my eyes. In my opinion, CoH2 has reached a nice balance between rng and complete mathematical determination for the most part, although in many regards it's far from perfect.
Does the rng make the game require less skill? Well, yes and no, rng can add to the skill ceiling if it is applied in to a limited extent. Yes, as you're sometimes not rewarded, even if you took a fight where you had initial advantage. No, as you are required to reevaluate the engagement at all times. My tank missed twice? -> Abandon the offensive or keep pushing, it's up to you to make a qualified decision.

If you want a more star craft-like gameplay, you need to play starcraft. The WW2-time frame does not really allow for a completely deterministic gameplay in my eyes. In my opinion, CoH2 has reached a nice balance between rng and complete mathematical determination for the most part, although in many regards it's far from perfect.
Does the rng make the game require less skill? Well, yes and no, rng can add to the skill ceiling if it is applied in to a limited extent. Yes, as you're sometimes not rewarded, even if you took a fight where you had initial advantage. No, as you are required to reevaluate the engagement at all times. My tank missed twice? -> Abandon the offensive or keep pushing, it's up to you to make a qualified decision.

Perfect answer. There's no definite decision, you adapt on the move.

Just wondering if Relic is considering lessoning the RNG effects in this otherwise great game? I know many have asked this same question in the past.

Way too many times have I left a game feeling <strongly> that I either won, or lost, due to some extra-bad luck. After putting in a hard-fought hour-long game, I don't want to win or loose due to a few extra-lucky shots.

I have played ~500 games of StarCraft over the past 15 years. I never once left a game feeling this way. It was ALWAYS the better played game that won. I would say ~25% of my games of COH2 ends up in 'rage' due to an entire squad going down with one grenade, or a my T34 missing several shots in a row while the opponent's P4 wipes my T34 out, ...at a critical point in the game. And somehow, it also really seems to come in sets of bad luck. Its not just one or two events typically. Realistic? Maybe, I don't really know. Fun? No, not nearly as much as the more deterministic combat of a game like SC. At least not from a competitive POV.

Relic - pls consider reducing the RNG effects. Seems quite a number of other folks feel similarly. Who knows, maybe such a move would bring more folks to COE2, at least more of the competitive types. Because otherwise, COE2 is really a great game.

Some of things you are mentioning about are 0 RNG. Grenades have no RNG component. They do a set amount of damage which is reduced the further you are from the center.

Ballistic weapons are the more kin to RNG, but even then there are plenty of ways to mitigate them.
If you STOP your vehicles, you basically get double the accuracy. If you vision on the target, indirect fire doesn't get punished by fog of war penalties.

The game through the years have basically removed or mitigated most of the annoying RNG effects.

You want 0 RNG, there's SC2 or AoE2. You want some RNG, there's CoH2 and WC3 (less RNG based but still with some elements of it).

Abandon mechanic and main gun crits are the only real pains of RNG remaining that I can think of off the top of my head.

There's always gonna be crazy penetration rolls or lucky wipes from artillery, but I think they should definitely look at those 2 vehicle crits

Abandon mechanic and main gun crits are the only real pains of RNG remaining that I can think of off the top of my head.

There's always gonna be crazy penetration rolls or lucky wipes from artillery, but I think they should definitely look at those 2 vehicle crits

I honestly think the main problem with the main gun crit comes from the fact that all other <25% health crits have been removed - I don't know the exact numbers but I think is like 25% chance for a vehicle to receive a crit after it gets hit to/below 25% health - so 1/4 chance to be crit have become 1/4 chance you get main gun crit.

The game has plenty of crits for vehicles, many of wich are temporal things like crew members injured, this are less punishing and could add some variety so is a 25% chance you get crit, but the chance to actually get a permanent crit, like the main gun one, are reduced.

I only really dislike the following RNG elements:

- The abandon mechanic -> should be removed or require substantial fuel to recrew.
- The death crit mechanic for squads inside halftracks -> should be (partially) changed to damage mechanic.
- Side armor being split into front and rear armor -> should be a seperate armor value, atleast in coh3.
- Main gun crit -> I would be fine with it removed, otherwise make it a less punishing crit.
- 1 model standing out of cover getting the whole squad suppressed -> Not RNG, but added for the sake of completionism. If the majority of models stand behind cover it should apply atleast the suppression reduction to the whole squad.

Some "necessary evil" RNG:

- Model targetting between squads fighting each other.
- Certain low accuracy, high damage units (most artillery, pak howi being an extreme example). -> could be improved by tweaking stats, providing better visual information (showing proper barrage area for artillery units both in- and outside of fow, explosion itself should fit with the size of its AoE and damage) and nerfing autofire for artillery (while buffing barrages).

Stop-calling-it-bad-RNG RNG:

- A tank missing while having hit the 4 previous shots, so not being out of line with its hit chance.
- Automatic weapons: they have the most consistent dps.

Realistic? Maybe, I don't really know. Fun? No, not nearly as much as the more deterministic combat of a game like SC. At least not from a competitive POV.

It's like comparing poker and chess.

Maybe you just prefer chess?


I've participated in and spectated enough tournaments to tell you that the high level competitive games are very rarely decided by sheer luck alone. It's very rare that one bad roll will completely end an entire game for you without possibility of a comeback. It mostly falls down to a very decisive engagement where a player just gets outplayed. A huge portion of the skill in this game is weighing odds and adapting to the RNG. The best players don't necessarily have the best strats, but are masters of adapting to bad situations. Watch some games from Barton and VonIvan, total experts at fighting on the backfoot and adapting.

Tobis said it the best way possible. RNG is there to use apm to adapt every second instead of sick microing.

Agreed. I don't want CoH to be any substantially closer to Starcraft than it is right now.

The two things I wish less everything or nothing are explosive AoEs and deflection damage on vehicles. I'd like the damage more evenly spread over a radius that misses less onnthe former, and anything above an armoured car to have some amount of damage on a bounce. We removed most of the random vehicle crits, which makes sense for how pivotal vehicles are in general, but the total lack of bounce damage is a source of a huge amount of frustration.

Just wondering if Relic is considering lessoning the RNG effects in this otherwise great game? I know many have asked this same question in the past.

Way too many times have I left a game feeling <strongly> that I either won, or lost, due to some extra-bad luck. After putting in a hard-fought hour-long game, I don't want to win or loose due to a few extra-lucky shots.

I have played ~500 games of StarCraft over the past 15 years. I never once left a game feeling this way. It was ALWAYS the better played game that won. I would say ~25% of my games of COH2 ends up in 'rage' due to an entire squad going down with one grenade, or a my T34 missing several shots in a row while the opponent's P4 wipes my T34 out, ...at a critical point in the game. And somehow, it also really seems to come in sets of bad luck. Its not just one or two events typically. Realistic? Maybe, I don't really know. Fun? No, not nearly as much as the more deterministic combat of a game like SC. At least not from a competitive POV.

Relic - pls consider reducing the RNG effects. Seems quite a number of other folks feel similarly. Who knows, maybe such a move would bring more folks to COE2, at least more of the competitive types. Because otherwise, COE2 is really a great game.

They already did. A lot.
I remember good ol' days of show down plane crashing down and obliterating someone's entire army :3

Or Commando Plane landing and obliterating someone's army :3

It's like comparing poker and chess.

Maybe you just prefer chess?

I've participated in and spectated enough tournaments to tell you that the high level competitive games are very rarely decided by sheer luck alone. It's very rare that one bad roll will completely end an entire game for you without possibility of a comeback. It mostly falls down to a very decisive engagement where a player just gets outplayed. A huge portion of the skill in this game is weighing odds and adapting to the RNG. The best players don't necessarily have the best strats, but are masters of adapting to bad situations. Watch some games from Barton and VonIvan, total experts at fighting on the backfoot and adapting.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1

Very well said!

I only really dislike the following RNG elements:

- The abandon mechanic -> should be removed or require substantial fuel to recrew.
* Tank already lost 98% health or so. Repairing the damn thing is already a penalty.
* Or did you mean American recrewing American tanks voluntarily?
- The death crit mechanic for squads inside halftracks -> should be (partially) changed to damage mechanic.
- Side armor being split into front and rear armor -> should be a seperate armor value, atleast in coh3.
* I'd REALLY love for 'side' armor to be a thing. Some tanks (like the Panther) benefit hugely from
this. As they had shit sides. Currently, it's better-than-tiger covers 180' of arc while it should
be covering 90' at most. Engine doesn't support this, so, can't be done. Same as COH1
- Main gun crit -> I would be fine with it removed, otherwise make it a less punishing crit.
* I like vehicle crits. Models have 80 life and die easily. Vehicles have 400-640-800-1200+
health and their having crits makes them be not just be unkillable steel monsters.
Vehicle crits adds character, flavor. I LOVE it. (And I'm a tankist, go figure)
- 1 model standing out of cover getting the whole squad suppressed -> Not RNG, but added for the sake of completionism. If the majority of models stand behind cover it should apply atleast the suppression reduction to the whole squad.
* I don't know how I stand on this one. I think I'd like for the standalone models to join
the rest under cover?

Some "necessary evil" RNG:

- Model targeting between squads fighting each other.
* Snipers can aim specific models.
- Certain low accuracy, high damage units (most artillery, pak howi being an extreme example). -> could be improved by tweaking stats, providing better visual information (showing proper barrage area for artillery units both in- and outside of fow, explosion itself should fit with the size of its AoE and damage) and nerfing autofire for artillery (while buffing barrages).
* IS-2 used to do 320 dmg per shot? But slow reload, as in real life.
Now it's 122mm gun fired rapidly, but for 160 dmg. Because missing hurt it's dps a lot.
And because it wiped infantry too much. Personally, I'd prefer it turned back to how it was.
* Mortars are already this way. They nerfed autofire range and buffed barrage range. Or something

Stop-calling-it-bad-RNG RNG:

- A tank missing while having hit the 4 previous shots, so not being out of line with its hit chance.
- Automatic weapons: they have the most consistent dps.

I honestly think the main problem with the main gun crit comes from the fact that all other <25% health crits have been removed - I don't know the exact numbers but I think is like 25% chance for a vehicle to receive a crit after it gets hit to/below 25% health - so 1/4 chance to be crit have become 1/4 chance you get main gun crit.

The game has plenty of crits for vehicles, many of wich are temporal things like crew members injured, this are less punishing and could add some variety so is a 25% chance you get crit, but the chance to actually get a permanent crit, like the main gun one, are reduced.

I love vehicle crits. I really do.
If anything, vehicles ought to get suppression from getting penned

* Tank already lost 98% health or so. Repairing the damn thing is already a penalty.
* Or did you mean American recrewing American tanks voluntarily?

I mean the following:
- Abandoned vehicles would cost half the fuel it cost to make them to recrew (e.g. 60 fuel for a P4).
- The vehicles can still be freely repaired before recrewing.
- Excludes super light vehicles.
- Also excludes USF vehicles that have been manually decrewed (obviously).

Why?
- Losing both your tank and having your opponent get a free tank is too big of a penalty.
- Your opponent killing your tank and you being able to freely recrew it is unfair for your opponent.

This change tones down the "free" factor. It still keeps vehicles worth recrewing, considering you don't have to pay the full manpower cost, the other half of the fuel cost and the associated teching costs.

* I like vehicle crits. Models have 80 life and die easily. Vehicles have 400-640-800-1200+
health and their having crits makes them be not just be unkillable steel monsters.

I would atleast like to see either of the following changes to the main gun crit:
- The main gun crit is instantly repaired when the vehicle's HP is above 25%. It should only be a big factor in the battle it occurs, not outside of it, unlike engine damage for example (which is punishment for getting snared/mined).
- The main gun crit becomes temporary (gunner unconscious for 5 seconds), would also allow making it less rare (thus being less RNG) and make it a punishment for using your tank at low health.

* Snipers can aim specific models.

No they can't, they snipe whatever model in the enemy squad is closest to them. This is ofcourse very hard to control when you have two squads fighting against each other. It's also why squad formation can heavily affect the durability of a squad, check this out:

Show Spoiler

Squad formations is one of the reason why Tommy Sections hardly seem to drop models (aside from their low RA). Unlike Grenadiers, who clearly have a 1 guy infront, Tommy Sections have 2 models infront, so damage often gets shared between them (this is most relevant outside of cover).