Move Airborne Paratroopers to 1 CP

Absolutely, categorically no.

People complain about the PzGrens, but having Paratroopers with Thompsons or LMGs running around at minute 5 would wreck Axis unit on the field at that point, in particular Grens would be absolutely demolished.

Second, if you want to talk about Paratroopers arriving too late and being squishy with 6 man, may I introduce you to Fallschirmjägers?

You're aware they spawn at 83% RA and get another RA buff at Vet 2, right? And all spawn with weapons the game even classifies as LMGs; essentially BAR equivalents. They even get a snare if I recall correctly, and a smoke grenade.

Schirms are a lot of things, and fit poorly into a poorly designed faction, but they're not USF Airborne Company Paratroopers bad. You can be sure of that.

They're veritable elite infantry, with the DPS, veterancy and RA to show for it. You can spawn one magically out of a building and replace veteran infantry losses with them if Obers didnt already exist non-doctrinally to do the exact same thing. With Paratroopers you'd actually be hurting yourself, since all they do is bleed.

(Edits for accuracy, not that stats will change minds)

You're aware they spawn at 80% RA and get another RA buff at Vet 2, right? And all spawn with weapons the game even classifies as LMGs; essentially BAR equivalents. They even get a snare if I recall correctly, and a smoke grenade.

Schirms are a lot of things, and fit poorly into a poorly designed faction, but they're not USF Airborne Company Paratroopers bad. You can be sure of that.

They're veritable elite infantry, with the DPS, veterancy and RA to show for it. You can spawn one magically out of a building and replace veteran infantry losses with them if Obers didnt already exist non-doctrinally to do the exact same thing. With Paratroopers you'd actually be hurting yourself, since all they do is bleed.

That tells me how much you actually know about the unit, namely nothing.

That tells me how much you actually know about the unit, namely nothing.

Wow, epic. Good thing you didn't have to address anything else in the post or you'd really look disingenuous right now.

Wow, epic. Good thing you didn't have to address anything else in the post or you'd really look disingenuous right now.

No, because if you don't even know the very basics about the unit - namely that its dropped in by plane and not spawned in via houses - there isn't much point discussing anything else, because it clearly shows you either have never used it or you simply don't know what you're talking about. Either way, the resulting discussion wouldn't be occurring on a credible level.

No, because if you don't even know the very basics about the unit - namely that its dropped in by plane and not spawned in via houses - there isn't much point discussing anything else, because it clearly shows you either have never used it or you simply don't know what you're talking about. Either way, the resulting discussion wouldn't be occurring on a credible level.

Well, I'm glad we got the whole disingenuity thing sorted out then.

For a brief moment I thought you actually wanted to have a balance discussion.

No, because if you don't even know the very basics about the unit - namely that its dropped in by plane and not spawned in via houses - there isn't much point discussing anything else, because it clearly shows you either have never used it or you simply don't know what you're talking about. Either way, the resulting discussion wouldn't be occurring on a credible level.

and myself? making the exact same points but without misremembering a recent patch that changed nothing about the unit save for how its delivered to the field?

HI! If you actually read the thread thus far, you would see that weapon upgrades were discussed! Including multiple ways to restrict them!

What's more is that um.... Falls don't require ANY weapon upgrades and also start with camo. This allows them to be high impact units, granted, harder to use. You can get a lot more out of falls if you have what it takes.

Additionally falls are clearly specialist infantry, but by nature no usf squad is due to weapon racks, so they are directly competing with rifles, where falls are competing with Obers.
Apples and oranges. Only thing similar is that they both fall from a tree (which is funny cause paratroopers Amma right?)

The weapon upgrades themselves are only half the problem. Paratroopers are still an incredibly potent unit that will easily demolish Grens, in particular since they're unlikely to have weapon upgrades at that point. Heck, they'll be potent enough to wipe MG42s as well, in particular since they don't require unlocked grenades.

I'm also not sure the Falls comparison is that spot on. If you've ever been on the receiving end of a Paratrooper LMG blob, you know what I mean. Yes, Falls can do likewise to an extend, but at least they're utter glass cannons, especially because they're 4 man squads. You'll always wipe a Falls much easier than a Paratrooper squad.

That said, don't get distracted by Falls. I said this in other threads, but balancing Allied factions towards OKW is an absolute disaster move that has left Ost in its worst state ever (until the last patch, and even in the last tournament most players opted for OKW).

Was playing 1v1s at the time, and only posting between matches, that's why I had no time to respond to your post until now

The weapon upgrades themselves are only half the problem. Paratroopers are still an incredibly potent unit that will easily demolish Grens, in particular since they're unlikely to have weapon upgrades at that point. Heck, they'll be potent enough to wipe MG42s as well, in particular since they don't require unlocked grenades.

I'm also not sure the Falls comparison is that spot on. If you've ever been on the receiving end of a Paratrooper LMG blob, you know what I mean. Yes, Falls can do likewise to an extend, but at least they're utter glass cannons, especially because they're 4 man squads. You'll always wipe a Falls much easier than a Paratrooper squad.

That said, don't get distracted by Falls. I said this in other threads, but balancing Allied factions towards OKW is an absolute disaster move that has left Ost in its worst state ever (until the last patch, and even in the last tournament most players opted for OKW).

Was playing 1v1s at the time, and only posting between matches, that's why I had no time to respond to your post until now

i had initially suggested 2 cp to be inline with shocks and guards, but i do think that 1 cp without weapon upgrades could be do able. paras with carbines would absoultly beat grens, but so do penals while coming sooner and costing lest and their durability would be the same so i think the same measures would work.

lmg blobs of all shapes and sizes are an issue, especially with 6 man squads. unrelated to the current topic i do feel like hard capping call in units would be to the benefit of the game. 2 squads a blob does not make. core units should be just that- the core of an army, but doctrinal units should have a place as well adn i share the convition that paras come too late to fill the role that they are supposed to, as the number of sqauds to effetivly play should be reached by 3 cp so its hard to find them a home.

Absolutely not..2cp maybe at best. Even pathfinders imo should NOT BE 0cp..
what this game least needs is more and more powercreep with earlier and earlier elite units making mainlines even worse and riflemen are the best example since literally everyone moans about rifles "being so bad"

If paras were 1cp what would even be the point now to go for Riflemen anymore? Paras get free grenades, a demo charge, good upgrades with really good abilities and have elite stats and are 6-men. all this without extra side upgrades or fuel costs like for rifles. Rifles only get snare over paratroopers but even that is no issue considering how OP Jackson is. or the fact that paras can get, I think 3?, bazookas with better efficiency than normal zooks.
Now let's also think about the fact that you have 50. cals which can be considered Op aswell in the same commander or u can tech into LT for it. And a stuart. Now you have Elite 2x LMG paras running around at 1 cp supported by arguably the best or 2nd best LMG in the game and possibly pathfinders and if he teched into CPT no problems at the AT front. Later on it is Jacksons with thunderbolts wiping tanks

This idea definitely sounds like an awesome way of making Paratroopers viable in the early game, so I went ahead and worked it into a mod, though I haven't released it yet.

I took all your suggestions and implemented them: the LMG Upgrade is locked behind 'Weapon Racks' side-tech, with only the SMGs being available to upgrade from get go. Cooked Grenades I'm split on locking behind side tech, honestly.

As for the Timed Explosive ability, I basically turned it into the Penal Satchel charge.

All that said, I think it'd be a good idea to shuffle Vet 2 and 3 around. That way, Paras get their accuracy boost the latest time possible (in order to mitigate their pressure on early game infantry), but they also gain their received accuracy bonuses faster. Maybe lock their 6th Man behind Vet 2 as well? Those carbines are pretty good, and even just 5 (the amount Rangers have) is nothing to sneeze at.

Absolutely not..2cp maybe at best. Even pathfinders imo should NOT BE 0cp..
what this game least needs is more and more powercreep with earlier and earlier elite units making mainlines even worse and riflemen are the best example since literally everyone moans about rifles "being so bad"

If paras were 1cp what would even be the point now to go for Riflemen anymore? Paras get free grenades, a demo charge, good upgrades with really good abilities and have elite stats and are 6-men. all this without extra side upgrades or fuel costs like for rifles. Rifles only get snare over paratroopers but even that is no issue considering how OP Jackson is. or the fact that paras can get, I think 3?, bazookas with better efficiency than normal zooks.
Now let's also think about the fact that you have 50. cals which can be considered Op aswell in the same commander or u can tech into LT for it. And a stuart. Now you have Elite 2x LMG paras running around at 1 cp supported by arguably the best or 2nd best LMG in the game and possibly pathfinders and if he teched into CPT no problems at the AT front. Later on it is Jacksons with thunderbolts wiping tanks

Again. What elite stats? RA 1.00 all the way to Vet 3, no special cover bonuses, no camo (Airborne Doctrine), no sight boost, no sprint - what on earth do you mean? They can get 4x Thompsons. Yes. Or you could go Cav Rifles with 2x Thompsons and 3x Grease Guns for the same effect, 2 CP earlier and 80 MP and 45 muni cheaper. You'll get a snare out of that too. As for zooks, they can get 2. That locks out any weapon upgrades, however, a subject we are already discussing locking behind tech. Same with nades possibly.

Jackson complaints are a subject for a whole nother thread, same with rifles talk, but your opponent wont be floating muni for P47s if hes been using all these seemingly OP upgrades and abilities you mention, and versus Ostheer its probably not even a cost-effective ability anymore what with the buffed Ostwind.

Also, cringe if you think the M2HB is OP. Even at the 'discount' Airborne Company gets for it with muni cost thrown it, the thing still has horrible aim time and is the only unit in the game with a .5 RA modifier on retreat instead of .4.

Pathfinders aren't OP either since the sniper rifles are useless at anything but long range and only crit on models under 40% HP. They aren't JLI.

This idea definitely sounds like an awesome way of making Paratroopers viable in the early game, so I went ahead and worked it into a mod, though I haven't released it yet.

I took all your suggestions and implemented them: the LMG Upgrade is locked behind 'Weapon Racks' side-tech, with only the SMGs being available to upgrade from get go. Cooked Grenades I'm split on locking behind side tech, honestly.

As for the Timed Explosive ability, I basically turned it into the Penal Satchel charge.

All that said, I think it'd be a good idea to shuffle Vet 2 and 3 around. That way, Paras get their accuracy boost the latest time possible (in order to mitigate their pressure on early game infantry), but they also gain their received accuracy bonuses faster. Maybe lock their 6th Man behind Vet 2 as well? Those carbines are pretty good, and even just 5 (the amount Rangers have) is nothing to sneeze at.

could try locking the 6th man behind 2 officers or officer and vehicle tech if thats possible. id rather not have a durability issue with such an expensive squad tied to vet as it makes replacing a vetted squad that much harder. plus it makes paras more unique as a 6 man squad

They're fine at CP03, what will be the next thread? Ranger CP02 as well? Pzgren are already coming too early, let's not repeat the same mistake for every supposedly elite infantry.

They are elite infantry they're not here to replace your mainline infantry but support them. Meaning you get your usual BO and instead of an additional stock squad or vehicle, you call them. Their cost, timing and abilities are fine, they largely overcome their initial bad RA with their suppressive fire once equipped with LMGs and are still really good with no upgrades vs most of mainline infantry the moment they hit the field.

Airbon doctrine issue is more about using 2 slots for HMG and ATG when you compare it with the new commanders.

Well, I went ahead and published the mod based on this thread, so please try it out and see if the idea has any merit in practice! Link: Early Paratroopers

This mod aims to make Paratroopers more viable in the early game while also not being overpowered when up against other early game units.

Changes include:

CP requirement for Paratroopers reduced from 3 to 1.

Manpower cost reduced from 360 to 340.

Paratrooper squad count reduced to 5 men. An upgrade to increase the squad count to 6 men is available after fully unlocking either the Platoon or Company Command Post,
or unlocking both officers. The upgrade costs 60 munitions and also grants a small received accuracy bonus of 0.95.

'2X M1919A6 LMGs' upgrade now requires Weapon Racks before you can buy them.

'Timed Explosive' ability damage has been increased from 312 to 400. The target requirement for open ground has been removed.

The veterancy of the squad has also been shuffled around to help keep the squad alive while also decreasing their pressure on other early game units.

Veterancy 2 now grants health regeneration, increased grenade range and a received accuracy bonus of 0.71.

Veterancy 3 now grants a cooldown bonus of 0.8, and a weapon accuracy bonus of 1.25.

The basic Paratroopers being CP2 probably wouldn't hurt, especially at their current price.

You might need to keep the weapon upgrades gated behind CP3 (or Racks) though.

PLS no more early powerful infatry. This route only leads to snowball effects.

If you want to replace riflemen with Paras in the commander simply redesign the unit with PF in mind making the unit follow the power level of mainline infatry.

Again. What elite stats? RA 1.00 all the way to Vet 3, no special cover bonuses, no camo (Airborne Doctrine), no sight boost, no sprint - what on earth do you mean? They can get 4x Thompsons. Yes. Or you could go Cav Rifles with 2x Thompsons and 3x Grease Guns for the same effect, 2 CP earlier and 80 MP and 45 muni cheaper. You'll get a snare out of that too. As for zooks, they can get 2. That locks out any weapon upgrades, however, a subject we are already discussing locking behind tech. Same with nades possibly.

Jackson complaints are a subject for a whole nother thread, same with rifles talk, but your opponent wont be floating muni for P47s if hes been using all these seemingly OP upgrades and abilities you mention, and versus Ostheer its probably not even a cost-effective ability anymore what with the buffed Ostwind.

Also, cringe if you think the M2HB is OP. Even at the 'discount' Airborne Company gets for it with muni cost thrown it, the thing still has horrible aim time and is the only unit in the game with a .5 RA modifier on retreat instead of .4.

Pathfinders aren't OP either since the sniper rifles are useless at anything but long range and only crit on models under 40% HP. They aren't JLI.

Like better DPS of LMG's that you can get 2 of alongside the fact you can fire on the move like Obers. Also maybe you should check your stats again and again because Para's get reduced size with vet up to 0.71. They get Thompsons on a 6man elite squad with a damn good ability and one of the deadliest, if not deadliest, CQC infantry in the game. If you're comparing Cav rifles to Thompson paras then just i dont know what to tell you. Grease guns arent para thompsons. You get a snare which is a short range satchel, hardly as practical as a proper snare. But if cav rifles are so good why do u need Paras? And I'm not sure if they get 2 or 3 after the update. Rangers can get 3 so I assumed Para's can aswell get 3 super zooks.
None of the tech locking changes anything I said you just want to replace your mainline with Elite paratroopers when theyre supposed to be a supporting squad not a replacement. (Coh 1 para blobs anyone?)

Depends on the game mode. If I play 3v3 I float 500+ munis with LMG para spam easily when I get Thunders in most maps easily destroying any heavy armour on axis side with Jackson support. Point was you want a superman commander that can do everything even after the tech changes with no real weaknesses because of how USF is designed.

Cringe if you actually use cringe. There is a reason you see so much double M2HB especially with pathfinders and I don't think it is because its so underperforming. You're not supposed to afk ur 50.cals u know? You're supposed to use them aggressively especially with PF sight that lets them suppress at max range with ease and deal with lights.

"CRINGE" if you think pathfinders suck. Again there is a reason they were nerfed _again_ in the last patch with a cooldown nerf and veterancy nerf. How biased can you be? Not to forget you can fit them with BAR's. JLI comes later, pathfinders at the start of the game. FYI They got that cooldown because they were spammed just like u want to now spam Para's for your mainline. PF's are in a better spot now with their cost and cooldown but theyre in no way bad at all and u probably forgot they get two (2) sniper rifles instead of JLI 1 if memory serves right.

Here's also some MG statistics for you:
suppression time for HMGs on neutral cover at ~25 range is:

HMG 42: 1.042s
HMG 34: 1.143s
Vickers: 1.592s
Maxim: 2.564s
M2HB: 0.741s

Absolutely, categorically no.

People complain about the PzGrens, but having Paratroopers with Thompsons or LMGs running around at minute 5 would wreck Axis unit on the field at that point, in particular Grens would be absolutely demolished.

Second, if you want to talk about Paratroopers arriving too late and being squishy with 6 man, may I introduce you to Fallschirmjägers?

That's why I suggested locking lmgs and thompsons beind 3cp. Read the thread.

Also, falls have 2 objectively better nades, have .83 RA (to compensate for being a small squad, which is totally fine), camo, and completely free fg42s that are great at all ranges, as opposed to paying 90-120 muni for weapon upgrades that take some time as well. Just food for thought.

The basic Paratroopers being CP2 probably wouldn't hurt, especially at their current price.

You might need to keep the weapon upgrades gated behind CP3 (or Racks) though.

+1

The last thing this game needs is more powercreep. 1 CP Paratroopers is just insanely unbalanced.

I'm for it. Make the 1919 locked behind the rack and I don't see a problem. Paratroopers were such a large part of US doctrine in WW2 I'd like to see them used in more CoH2 doctrines. The 3CP is certainly too much. USF is too infantry heavy to fit them in your build orders currently.