Move Airborne Paratroopers to 1 CP

(]NOTE: This thread only concerns USF Airborne Company Paratroopers. Recon Support Company Paratroopers probably require a later CP requirement to prevent an incredibly early Howitzer, and to balance out the huge discount they receive when bundled together.)

The last few updates to this game have been all about reducing CP requirements for various units, and increasing build variety. I'm here to make the case for doing the same with USF Airborne Company Paratroopers.

I'll first be giving some bullet point type reasons for this change, for those who don't like to read very much, and then a more expansive justification.

1. At CP 3, Paratroopers come too late to be relevant.

By the CP 3 mark, you should have at least one officer, one rear echelon squad, and probably between two or three rifle squads, depending on other manpower investments at this point in the game. Given you have selected Airborne, chances are there is also a Pathfinder squad on the field. At this point, both in unit count and game time, you are rapidly approaching what I would say is the efficiency cap for infantry squads. Too much infantry can be hard to micro and incur powerful bleed, particularly as USF, and MGs will have started blocking off portions of the map, making deeper infantry flanks with extra squads less viable, particularly as light vehicles should by now be entering the field.

2. Paratroopers as they exist now are not elite infantry stat-wise, and bleed worse and worse the later they are introduced.

At 100% RA (down to 97% with the Paratrooper bulletin, the same as stock riflemen), USF paratroopers will be the squishiest infantry on the field by the time they arrive at CP 3, given that any enemy Volks should be at least Veterancy 1 by this point. Damningly, Paratroopers themselves do not receive any sort of RA buff until their own Veterancy 3, at which point their received accuracy becomes 71% (0.71), about the level of a Vet 2 Riflemen squad (75% est, (0.7469)). Vet 3 Riflemen are actually superior to Paratroopers in terms of received accuracy. One would be hard pressed to find a call-in infantry unit at this command point level which is more easily killed than USF Paratroopers.

One might argue they might make up for this squishiness through sheer firepower. This, too, is flawed thinking, as these are not rangers; 360 MP 90 Mun Thompson Paratroopers will be costing you valuable manpower any time you commit them to a fight from range, given their high received accuracy. In this role, the CP1-leveled Cavalry Riflemen are most comparable, even if they can only equip two Thompsons. Cavalry Riflemen, it should be noted, are also equipped with snares and smoke grenades, as well as SMGs from the outset. Assault Grenadiers make this even more obvious, boasting a better received accuracy than either Cavalry Rifles or Paratroopers at 95% (0.95), while having access to grenades, sprint, and eventually 6-man squad size.

The M1919s ease the RA vulnerability somewhat, but are an extremely expensive investment at 120 munitions, and scale poorly compared to Rifleman BARs or Grenadier LMG42s considering the lack of any accuracy veterancy for Paratroopers.

Without any upgrades whatsoever the Paratroopers do offer a marginal DPS advantage over Riflemen at short to medium range, although at the cost of moving accuracy and while suffering from the same bleed issues mentioned before. Paratroopers also lack a snare, though this is the norm for allied call-in infantry.

For these reasons, it is highly unlikely and more than a bit risky to ever deploy more than one Paratrooper squad as late as they come now, which brings us to the final listed reason.

3. It would offer much-needed variety to USF gameplay, and make Airborne Company live up to it's name.

This is a commander with "Airborne" in the name, and yet, like every other USF commander, it quickly devolves into rifle spam, this time with the admittedly useful and admittedly airborne quality of deploying team weapons without binding the player to specific tech choices. By the time the Company's signature Paratroopers are deployable, there is no reason and no room to deploy them, and this reduces the Airborne Company in its current state to some sort of "Resupply Operation" Company, or "Airborne Logistics" Company.

USF is already perhaps one of the most monotonous of this game's factions, and one from whom there is never a shortage of complaints for the unreliability of their mainline infantry. To move Paratroopers to a more accessible CP stage would increase the gameplay variety of playing with or against the commander, without having a massive impact upon actual game balance.

Paratrooper Thompsons cost too much munitions to be anything near ubiquitous in the early game, and are comparable in practice to Panzergrenadier STG44s, a unit which is already both accessible in the early game and often spammed, but is less susceptible to bleed. Assault grenadiers are an even better comparison, being both doctrinal, six-man, and issued with high DPS MP40s as stock to boot, right from CP0.

Likewise the munitions cost of the M1919 LMGs is too high for much early game use, and in both cases the Paratrooper squads would be totally helpless versus light armor or MGs of any sort, lacking snares, any chance at AT upgrades, smoke, or sprint abilities of any sort.

Without upgrades, Paratroopers are perhaps most comparable to unupgraded and unvetted Penal infantry at best, a unit which would hit the field long before Paratroopers would, even at CP1, and which scales better into the late game.


So, an overview:

Paratroopers currently arrive too late to be relevant and there is often no reason for them to be produced at the stage in the game which they arrive at.

Paratroopers are not elite units like most other CP3 or even CP2 unlocks. If anything, they are probably less so than Cavalry Riflemen, who already arrive at CP1 and for whom there are currently calls to have their CP requirement moved to 0, and certainly less so than Assault Grenadiers, who are available from CP0 and receive continuous RA bonuses from vet and upgrades, as well as a better starting RA at 95% (0.95).

Moving Paratroopers CP requirement would allow for a more diverse playstyle for Airborne company when compared to other USF commanders, while still keeping the balance of the game intact. Paratroopers lack snares, unlike Panzerfusiliers, Cavalry Riflemen or Fallschirmjagers, and in Airborne Company cannot be upgraded with any AT capability without first paying for the weapon rack upgrade, like any other USF unit. Compared to riflemen, they would be a more expensive, slightly squishier infantry alternative that offers a substantial boost to AI dps in the midgame, at the cost of total received accuracy and snares.

(]NOTE: (AGAIN) This thread only concerns USF Airborne Company Paratroopers. Recon Support Company Paratroopers probably require a later CP requirement to prevent an incredibly early Howitzer, and to balance out the huge discount they receive when bundled together.)

Hopefully this will prompt a good discussion. At time of posting the only balance concern I can consider is that early paratroopers might mean a way to sidestep the USF grenade tech, at least for frag grenades. This is a fairly easy fix, and may not even be too much of a balance issue at all, considering smoke grenades still require the tech, and the ability already costs an extra 5 munitions. Its not like CP0 techless grenades aren't already a thing anyway.

Tell me what you think

1cp is a bit too early IMO, I think they should be 2 CP in the same tier as guards and shock troops

1cp is a bit too early IMO, I think they should be 2 CP in the same tier as guards and shock troops

Fair, but I should say that both Guards and Shocks enter the field with better durability, and already mostly capable of fulfilling their AI (Shocks) or AT(Guards) capability without upgrade. Obviously the Guards can have DPs added, but they'll still have their AT rifles.

Still, CP2 is better than CP3, and I'd be happy to have that, at least. Would coincide with the M2HB drop.

I do think CP1 is better thematically, however, and I doubt the impact of Paratroopers at that stage would be as large as Shocks or Guards, at least without being upgraded.

Fair, but I should say that both Guards and Shocks enter the field with better durability, and already mostly capable of fulfilling their AI (Shocks) or AT(Guards) capability without upgrade. Obviously the Guards can have DPs added, but they'll still have their AT rifles.

Still, CP2 is better than CP3, and I'd be happy to have that, at least. Would coincide with the M2HB drop.

I do think CP1 is better thematically, however, and I doubt the impact of Paratroopers at that stage would be as large as Shocks or Guards, at least without being upgraded.

Now, compare cons and maxims to .30 cal HMG and rifles, see who actually needs stronger support.

Now, compare cons and maxims to .30 cal HMG and rifles, see who actually needs stronger support.

I would say that is somewhat off topic, as I have no desire to nerf SOV. The CP reqs for shocks and guards being what they are has little to do with Paratroopers CP req being what it is; they aren't going to be fighting each other any time soon, and the units in question aren't even really comparable imo.

I'd compare Paratroopers more to Penals, really.

Fair, but I should say that both Guards and Shocks enter the field with better durability, and already mostly capable of fulfilling their AI (Shocks) or AT(Guards) capability without upgrade. Obviously the Guards can have DPs added, but they'll still have their AT rifles.

Still, CP2 is better than CP3, and I'd be happy to have that, at least. Would coincide with the M2HB drop.

I do think CP1 is better thematically, however, and I doubt the impact of Paratroopers at that stage would be as large as Shocks or Guards, at least without being upgraded.

Paras however can come into the field immediately and reinforce anywhere (including crewed weapons) so it's a bit of a trade off.
Tbh I'd rather airborne stats and vet get shuffled around and dropped to 2 cp than 1 cp as is. Could start at something like 0.9 RA and sprinkle their bonuses through the other vet levels.
I do agree that accessibility is an issue.

Paras however can come into the field immediately and reinforce anywhere (including crewed weapons) so it's a bit of a trade off.
Tbh I'd rather airborne stats and vet get shuffled around and dropped to 2 cp than 1 cp as is. Could start at something like 0.9 RA and sprinkle their bonuses through the other vet levels.
I do agree that accessibility is an issue.

The ability of paratroopers to reinforce via beacons is a feature of theirs which, it is true, I did not really address in the OP. However, I'm not really sure it's something that would be any more game-breaking at CP1 than it (isn't, really) at its current place in CP3.

Paratroopers reinforce incredibly slowly when using the beacon reinforce, making it something I've only really ever seen as situationally useful.

Again, I definitely can understand the concern. I just don't think it'd be any more of a big deal at a lower CP level. Likewise with the inherent airdrop capability.

The ability of paratroopers to reinforce via beacons is a feature of theirs which, it is true, I did not really address in the OP. However, I'm not really sure it's something that would be any more game-breaking at CP1 than it (isn't, really) at its current place in CP3.

Paratroopers reinforce incredibly slowly when using the beacon reinforce, making it something I've only really ever seen as situationally useful.

Again, I definitely can understand the concern. I just don't think it'd be any more of a big deal at a lower CP level.

While expensive I would also fear that their weapons would impact heavily if they came too early. Elite carbines are quite good, but 2 lmgs that fire on the move at the same price as 2 BARs without delaying tech could prove problematic.
Maybe I'm being too cautious but I'd rather err on the side of a bit late and slightly underpowered than too early and game breaking simply due to how sparce patches are. Smaller steps instead of leaps is all I'm thinking.

Usf players: OMG! Panzergrenadiers arrive 20 seconds earlier now? Broken!
Also usf players: Heya, can I get uuuuuh elite infantry within 2.5mins of the game start?

Usf players: OMG! Panzergrenadiers arrive 20 seconds earlier now? Broken!
Also usf players: Heya, can I get uuuuuh elite infantry within 2.5mins of the game start?

I wish you would have read the nice OP that I spent so long on making for you.

I wish you would have read the nice OP that I spent so long on making for you.

I didn’t read it because I assumed it would just be another usf players asking for a megabuff to a usf unit which in his opinion is “absolute garbage”.


Now let me go read what you wrote.


Yeah no surprise, that’s exactly what you wrote. Such a surprise.

I didn’t read it because I assumed it would just be another usf players asking for a megabuff to a usf unit which in his opinion is “absolute garbage”.


Now let me go read what you wrote.


Yeah no surprise, that’s exactly what you wrote. Such a surprise.

Ok

While expensive I would also fear that their weapons would impact heavily if they came too early. Elite carbines are quite good, but 2 lmgs that fire on the move at the same price as 2 BARs without delaying tech could prove problematic.
Maybe I'm being too cautious but I'd rather err on the side of a bit late and slightly underpowered than too early and game breaking simply due to how sparce patches are. Smaller steps instead of leaps is all I'm thinking.

The carbines higher static dps at mid/short range I see as a tradeoff for having 100% RA until Veterancy 3, and of course the unit being 360MP and 9 pop.

As for the LMGs, I wouldn't be opposed to locking them behind either tech, CP (like Infantry Company/Tactical Support Company M1919s, which, I should note, have entirely different stats from the Airborne M1919s), or even removing M1919s from the Airborne Company Paratroopers entirely, leaving it as more of a Recon Support Company thing.

It is good to hear actual concerns, however, and these are valid points.

2cp will be fine

Fallschirmjäger also should be 2cp unit

1cp is a bit too early IMO, I think they should be 2 CP in the same tier as guards and shock troops

+1

IMO weapon upgrades should be locked behind 3cp as they're some of the best in class in the game, and a lot of other elite infantry comes at 3cp. They're about pgren level with just the carbines, so I think it'd be perfectly fine if they came at the same time as guards and shocks.

The carbines higher static dps at mid/short range I see as a tradeoff for having 100% RA until Veterancy 3, and of course the unit being 360MP and 9 pop.

As for the LMGs, I wouldn't be opposed to locking them behind either tech, CP (like Infantry Company/Tactical Support Company M1919s, which, I should note, have entirely different stats from the Airborne M1919s), or even removing M1919s from the Airborne Company Paratroopers entirely, leaving it as more of a Recon Support Company thing.

It is good to hear actual concerns, however, and these are valid points.

zooks and thompsons wouldn't be too bad i dont think,. the m19191s let them be too good all round and in fact even overshadow the thompsons in most maps.

another thing that may be troublesome is if too early is the ability to spawn them anywhere, at 1 cp thast could be very powerful in and of itself, let alone the good dps they can put out, if dropped to 1 cp they should be restricted to only spawn on beacons, but i dont really like that....

side note but related to paras, i just found out that their timed demo (that ability that nobody ever uses) wont OHK a big arty.... seems like a huge design flaw doesnt it?

zooks and thompsons wouldn't be too bad i dont think,. the m19191s let them be too good all round and in fact even overshadow the thompsons in most maps.

another thing that may be troublesome is if too early is the ability to spawn them anywhere, at 1 cp thast could be very powerful in and of itself, let alone the good dps they can put out, if dropped to 1 cp they should be restricted to only spawn on beacons, but i dont really like that....

side note but related to paras, i just found out that their timed demo (that ability that nobody ever uses) wont OHK a big arty.... seems like a huge design flaw doesnt it?

I dont think their spawning 'anywhere' is a big deal at any CP. The plane pass is easily visible and the paras themselves are massively vulnerable during and after drop - provided they dont all touch a tree or a building and die instantly. It's not like they're infiltration units that magically spawn out of houses anywhere on the map without warning.

And yeah, the timed charge is mostly useless. There's really a lot of problems with the way paratroopers are implemented right now, and I dont think it's too much to say that theyre completely uncompetitive right now, with their timing, veterancy, and basic starting stats.

I still think they should come as early as possible for airborne company, no matter what. Even if it means removing the M1919s. At CP3 there is no competitive reason to produce this unit, most certainly not several of them, and Id like anyone to point me to a high level game showing otherwise tbh.

I dont think their spawning 'anywhere' is a big deal at any CP. The plane pass is easily visible and the paras themselves are massively vulnerable during and after drop - provided they dont all touch a tree or a building and die instantly. It's not like they're infiltration units that magically spawn out of houses anywhere on the map without warning.

And yeah, the timed charge is mostly useless. There's really a lot of problems with the way paratroopers are implemented right now, and I dont think it's too much to say that theyre completely uncompetitive right now, with their timing, veterancy, and basic starting stats.

I still think they should come as early as possible for airborne company, no matter what. Even if it means removing the M1919s. At CP3 there is no competitive reason to produce this unit, most certainly not several of them, and Id like anyone to point me to a high level game showing otherwise tbh.

its more the flexibility of being able to be behind enemy lines, although i guess thats the point...
if they drop to 1 cp i wouldnt want any changes other than locking their upgrades behind an officer or the weapon rack, at 2 CP id see some deeper reworks that make them a bit more durable and adjusting their vet so it delays their bleed slightly (even 10% at vet 1 would be alright)
you have convinced me that it might not be soo bad, but i would like to test it for sure, its not an unconditional flip of opinion

edit: fixing that demo would be choice as well, regardless of what happens to paras

Absolutely, categorically no.

People complain about the PzGrens, but having Paratroopers with Thompsons or LMGs running around at minute 5 would wreck Axis unit on the field at that point, in particular Grens would be absolutely demolished.

Second, if you want to talk about Paratroopers arriving too late and being squishy with 6 man, may I introduce you to Fallschirmjägers?

Absolutely, categorically no.

People complain about the PzGrens, but having Paratroopers with Thompsons or LMGs running around at minute 5 would wreck Axis unit on the field at that point, in particular Grens would be absolutely demolished.

Second, if you want to talk about Paratroopers arriving too late and being squishy with 6 man, may I introduce you to Fallschirmjägers?

HI! If you actually read the thread thus far, you would see that weapon upgrades were discussed! Including multiple ways to restrict them!

What's more is that um.... Falls don't require ANY weapon upgrades and also start with camo. This allows them to be high impact units, granted, harder to use. You can get a lot more out of falls if you have what it takes.

Additionally falls are clearly specialist infantry, but by nature no usf squad is due to weapon racks, so they are directly competing with rifles, where falls are competing with Obers.
Apples and oranges. Only thing similar is that they both fall from a tree (which is funny cause paratroopers Amma right?)