Machine Guns

Or simply nerf the incendiary grenade (changes could include sorter range, lower damage but damage "all in hold" for DOT) or replace the grenade with fragmentation grenade and move incendiary grenade to SP and doctrinal infatry.

I also think usf brit nades be nerf along it. Those seem to have high wipe potential in how fast they are thrown and detonated. Especially hurt 4 man wehr squads and slow mortar/mg pack times.

I also don't think mg42 control blob as well too. Its slight better suppression we are talking about half sec or so, rather nothing against the blob wehr will face. And once we go past mid game, mg42 is useless. Hence my vote. Mgs should be accounted against the factions it face rather than be standards.

For maxim, it have trouble with 5man okw and flame nades. But i still feel smaller but longer cone, with high dps, and fast pack/unpack times, will make interesting change, to bleed units. So that wehr with grens can easier to flank, since they are poor moving damages, so maxim profile should not be similar of cone and suppression.

No need be all about suppression. Sov can tech to AAHT if needed, like okw with FHT.

In summary i propose these changes.

Mg42 and 34 get target size decreases on vet, to enable it scale better in late games.

Maxim to get smaller but longer cone, with dps buff on vet.

Flame and pineapple nades to be less effective againt support weapons.

Grens with hmg upgrade should be more effective against support weapon

If we make maxim ' another' mg, its boring. and if it keeps its 6men and packup speeds, wehr mostly in deeper shit.

Truth now, wehr grens are just bad at flanking and killing mg, the worst imo. All mgs have enough cone of fire and suppression, or at least similar enough to be effective against factions. Suppression isnt the problem imo

mg34 is not crap it does what most the time I want an mg to do suppress blobs and it does that. The dmg is shit but I dont care if it shoots bbs if it supresses the blob they have no choice but to retreat or they can just sit there suppressed and be useless. I agree that it is nice the Vickers has great dmg that is nice but it is also lucky at vet 3 if it can even suppress 2 vet axis squads before one spread out makes me relocate or retreat it.

Funny how every time I steal an mg34 it completely screws okw blobs and I have zero problems vetting it and now I can even use it as a light vehicle counter with the magic bullets.

Well, there you have it. MrGame is the one who thinks the MG42 needs buffs. Thread over, folks, bait successful.

They also want to give the maxim more damage again, which tells me basically everything I need to know about how little I regard their proposals.


Once more for the folks in the back:

MGs are supposed to suppress infantry
Damage is not what they're for
Quick moving high damage maxims are what made them spammable in the first place - at the time they were just superior to conscripts
Never again

I don't see why is bait?
This game is company of heroes, not company of homogeneous. Im not a fan of making all mg have same profiles. If you do that, then the counters will have to be likewise too. So its down to rock paper stone StarCraft. Some like that, but not us.

Making maxim more offensive does play into soviet and binds better with cons. Likewise making grens stronger to take out the maxim will counter the spamming, with smaller cone and less suppression

Making maxim more offensive does play into soviet and binds better with cons. Likewise making grens stronger to take out the maxim will counter the spamming, with smaller cone and less suppression

This is where your logic fails badly.
More offensive maxim puts cons on the bench again, because cons just don't cut it without doctrinal weapons, while grens are the one singular unit in the whole game that HMGs, including maxim, are supposed to hardcounter.

You want Maxim to be LMG with setup and arc, its not going to work as evidenced by the state of maxim pre setup and arc adjustment patch and grens aren't supposed in any capacity to stand up to it frontally under any circumstances other then green cover they were at first.

I dont see why cons get benched when we are changing the maxim only? In fact, it supplement cons better, since they are supported by lmg without doctrine now.

We have asymmetric, cons+maxim vs 2xGrens with lmg. Cone vs cover

I believe this was the original design intention. It could work if it was tweaks along this line instead of discarding now we are left with in-between

now maxim is closer to just 'another' mg profile. Hence my suggestion is given.

The original design was a heavily mobile SUPPRESSION platform, on a faction which lacks both non doctrinally units and flexibity to get different tiers of units.

An MG is supposed to suppress units, not do damage. If that was not the case, suppression wouldn't buff the resistance when units go prone into the ground.

Translation:
"It's only major downside is that it can't do it's only job"

You don't buy mgs do get kills. You buy them to suppress. The mg34 does that very well, the maxim is terrible at it. The 34 is better than the maxim

You are looking at surpression and ignoring other factors.

Yeah, Maxim is indeed the worst in suppression of all mgs but in everything else it is good. It is definitely better than MG34.


Why and it is simple.

Way better Damage, survivability, deploy time and its definitely manoeuvrable which makes it hell of a lot of more effective in terms of support. Timing is everything! You can not exactly run around it or counter it that easily if you encounter it right?


Adding strong surpression to Maxim would kill the game because then, it can not even be countered. Maybe, what they can do instead is to add more accuracy for more damage focused instead. Would most certainly make Maxim more of a popular choice than it is now.

Surely, adding surpression to Maxim would destroy the game. I would rather increase damage or some other areas to make it better. Giving it better Surpression is not a good idea at all. Should not give that cuz every other MG has that. Maybe something different since its is 6 guys otherwise make it 4 to give good suppression.

Currently putting maxim in buildings and dueling with either MG34 or MG42. Maxim wins because of damage, survivability and long bursts.

Does not necessarily make Maxim terrible if its bad in one thing only. Look at the other stuff.

You are looking at surpression and ignoring other factors.

Yes because MGs ONLY job is to suppress infantry. Any ability beyond that is a bonus, but if it can't do it's main job effectively than what's the point?

Part of the reason the maxim does more damage is because it sucks so bad at suppressing. Their targets take more fire before getting the defensive modifiers Elchino just referenced.

It is not better than the mg34. You can keep repeating that all you want, it's wrong on several levels. If you don't believe me the poll results are pretty overwhelming

You are looking at surpression and ignoring other factors.

Yeah, Maxim is indeed the worst in suppression of all mgs but in everything else it is good. It is definitely better than MG34.


Why and it is simple.

Way better Damage, survivability, deploy time and its definitely manoeuvrable which makes it hell of a lot of more effective in terms of support. Timing is everything! You can not exactly run around it or counter it that easily if you encounter it right?


Adding strong surpression to Maxim would kill the game because then, it can not even be countered. Maybe, what they can do instead is to add more accuracy for more damage focused instead. Would most certainly make Maxim more of a popular choice than it is now.

Surely, adding surpression to Maxim would destroy the game. I would rather increase damage or some other areas to make it better. Giving it better Surpression is not a good idea at all. Should not give that cuz every other MG has that. Maybe something different since its is 6 guys otherwise make it 4 to give good suppression.

Currently putting maxim in buildings and dueling with either MG34 or MG42. Maxim wins because of damage, survivability and long bursts.

Does not necessarily make Maxim terrible if its bad in one thing only. Look at the other stuff.

Obviously other changes would take place
Saying "who cares about Supression it has damage!" is like saying the brit sniper isn't the worst sniper because it has a better chance at dealing a minuscule amount of damage to lightly armored vehicles. You don't buy a machine gun for damaging models any more than you buy a sniper to damage tanks.

What's more, both axis mgs can double their damage and increase their pen with vet making them ideal attopping infantry, dueling machine guns and mulching light vehicles. The maxim gets "reload and then pretend you are a proper machine gun"

The maxim is the worst MG bar none at doing what mgs are designed to do. The fact that it can accomplish other tasks despite failing at its dedicated task is more proof of its need to change not reinforcement of its current state.

Obviously other changes would take place
Saying "who cares about Supression it has damage!" is like saying the brit sniper isn't the worst sniper because it has a better chance at dealing a minuscule amount of damage to lightly armored vehicles. You don't buy a machine gun for damaging models any more than you buy a sniper to damage tanks.

What's more, both axis mgs can double their damage and increase their pen with vet making them ideal attopping infantry, dueling machine guns and mulching light vehicles. The maxim gets "reload and then pretend you are a proper machine gun"

The maxim is the worst MG bar none at doing what mgs are designed to do. The fact that it can accomplish other tasks despite failing at its dedicated task is more proof of its need to change not reinforcement of its current state.

I did not say who cares about supression, bla, bla ,bla.

I said that buffing surpression for Maxim is possible if it were made 4 or maybe even 5 man instead.

Having all the utility for 6 man support weapon makes it all broken. It is broken already for SU to steal an MG42 or even any other MG as it makes it impossible to retrieve it back. Doing that for Maxim is just stupid.

I would say, nerf SU 6 man team weapons to 4 or 5 man. Than increase all their effectivness. A fair trade right?

That is what I said. That is a better resolution. Trading areas from survivability to better performance.


So dumb to even give more buffs to a 6 man team weapon.

So, is just not only just caring for the MGs role but for the gameplay and balancing in the process.

I never ignored the fact that Maxim is the worst MG in game. Never said it was fine. I was pointing out areas that should not be ignored especially about MG34!

Do not change my words. It is simply not cool.

As long as the deathloop is there you cant put the maxim crew to 4 or 5 men ever. The moment it is flanked then its 100% wiped.


It already is wiped as much or more then the other mg,s.

The deathloop completly negates to 2 man advantidge. Now add the weak suprsession and smaller arc into the equesion.

What if the balance team played around with stats to fix the deathloop?

I think the best way would be to greatly increase the speed of packing it up, putting it around 0.2 or 0.3 seconds, that way the model on the gun would pack up almost instantly, avoiding the deathloop.

Now obviously such a change on its own would be a huge buff, making maxims extremely resistant to flanking and much more spam friendly, so let's explore some nerfs which could balance it out.

0.4 RA is a staple for retreating squads, except for 50cals which get 0.5. What if the maxim could pack up super quick, but received 0.75 RA during a retreat? That way if you flanked a maxim you could still either deal bleed it or kill it, despite the instant packing up.

Another nerf that should follow is setting up time, which should be increased 1.5x. This would balance out the fast packing up, while also discouraging blobbing.

Potentially if such changes were effective, the balance team could explore other options, such as a 5man crew and improved combat performance.

What are people's thoughts on this?

I do realize sometimes the death loop is a wide formation of the 6man crew with one man going to the MG, dying, then another going after him,but I do think players can play around that with the maxim by utilizing yellow cover which bunches up crew members.

It is definitely better than MG34.

I never ignored the fact that Maxim is the worst MG in game.

Do not change my words. It is simply not cool.

Anyway
The only reason Vickers and Maxim deal more damage is because they are WORSE at their job than MG42/34, that being suppressing infantry, simple as that.

I do realize sometimes the death loop is a wide formation of the 6man crew with one man going to the MG, dying, then another going after him,but I do think players can play around that with the maxim by utilizing yellow cover which bunches up crew members.

In yellow cover they bunch up. And leaves them realy vunerable to nades wich can get tossed frontaly mostly. Damaging or outright killing every model. If there are survivors they will drop quickly and the deathloop still persists.

In yellow cover they bunch up. And leaves them realy vunerable to nades wich can get tossed frontaly mostly. Damaging or outright killing every model. If there are survivors they will drop quickly and the deathloop still persists.

But the 0.2-0.3 packing up time would allow you to easily dodge any rifle nades.

But the 0.2-0.3 packing up time would allow you to easily dodge any rifle nades.

In theory. The motorcycle pathing likes to make up for that as much as the cgunner dying and and deathlooping.

Its a unit designed to be on the front that is drastically punished for being on the front and also unable to do its job. It's really just a shit unit

What's more, "it has a 6 man crew!" just means that it's absolutely a d entirely useless if another faction tries to use it. The 6 man crew should be a bonus, not a requirement for it to function (kinda like vet abilities but I guess I'm at odds with the balance team there)

The supression it had before made it op.

Maybe give its old setup and packup time back. Give sprint back, because it current ability doesnt do it either.

It might no supress then but its mobile and can support cons or ce,s as damage booster and it can keep up.