For the Love Of God M1 Pack Howitzer

And as I've pointed out to you, this thread is about nerfing the Pak howy further beyond that change. Nobody has said the same for the Leig, so that's completely irrelevant to my point

What is the sole prupose of pak howie to you? USF has already T0 mortars to give "cheaper" (by your own words) and more versatile support to infantry.

Pak howie is an ez long range infantry killer. Nerfing it because its overperforming at killing is accurate. As long as you can hold the line with USF and a pak howie you can bleed enemies. It does not require fuel and comes way early when infantry fights are fundamental. The USF tech rework enabled USF to be versatile and deadly because of non conventional tools.

I wouldnt predict how much pak howie is going to be nerfed, i woulnt predict the game will get worse because of that. I want to see a great game with diverse units and difficulty.

To remove pak howie auto fire will consolidate it as a premium late indirect support weapon. Maybe adding another ability and reducing its smoke timing will help it to become a true support unit, as it should be.
Either that or removing T0 mortars for USF, making MortarHT stock and pak howie doctrinal.

The fact that usf "doesnt have rocket arty" argument is being abused to justify overperforming indirect fire units (scotts,pak howie) is worrying. USF tends to have a couple of support weapon options to choose to adapt offensively.
Dont believe me? suppression (.50 cal or aaht) medium tanks (sherman, 76, e8, m10), indirect fire (mortar, pak howie, scott, calliope) early lvs and tanks (stuart,greyhound), call in openings (on top of one of the best mainlines inf) (ass engies, pathfinders)
USF rooster is numerous for a reason and that reason is to adapt the offense, not to abuse the OP unit in each meta.

People comparing pak howie to pwerfer only confirms tha pak howies are op, because they come earlier, no fuel, no micro required. To compare pak howie to howitzers make it worse, since they do cost fuel too and are doctrinal.

What is the sole prupose of pak howie to you? USF has already T0 mortars to give "cheaper" (by your own words) and more versatile support to infantry.

Pak howie is an ez long range infantry killer. Nerfing it because its overperforming at killing is accurate. As long as you can hold the line with USF and a pak howie you can bleed enemies. It does not require fuel and comes way early when infantry fights are fundamental. The USF tech rework enabled USF to be versatile and deadly because of non conventional tools.

I wouldnt predict how much pak howie is going to be nerfed, i woulnt predict the game will get worse because of that. I want to see a great game with diverse units and difficulty.

To remove pak howie auto fire will consolidate it as a premium late indirect support weapon. Maybe adding another ability and reducing its smoke timing will help it to become a true support unit, as it should be.
Either that or removing T0 mortars for USF, making MortarHT stock and pak howie doctrinal.

The fact that usf "doesnt have rocket arty" argument is being abused to justify overperforming indirect fire units (scotts,pak howie) is worrying. USF tends to have a couple of support weapon options to choose to adapt offensively.
Dont believe me? suppression (.50 cal or aaht) medium tanks (sherman, 76, e8, m10), indirect fire (mortar, pak howie, scott, calliope) early lvs and tanks (stuart,greyhound), call in openings (on top of one of the best mainlines inf) (ass engies, pathfinders)
USF rooster is numerous for a reason and that reason is to adapt the offense, not to abuse the OP unit in each meta.

People comparing pak howie to pwerfer only confirms tha pak howies are op, because they come earlier, no fuel, no micro required. To compare pak howie to howitzers make it worse, since they do cost fuel too and are doctrinal.

The usf mortar is terrible. Turning the pak Howie into barrage only weapon is a good idea, but Usf needs help in 2's and up vs support happy opponents. I'm talking about those narrow maps with important resource points placed in middle. Usf has a difficult time before mortar halftracks or pak howitzers are out.

USF mortar can be terrible but it gives garrison dislodge and early smokes. More than worth its price. You just cant compare the killing potential of a T0 mortar to a pak howie tho. Dont forget that USF mortars are par on OST ones too.

USF mortar can be terrible but it gives garrison dislodge and early smokes. More than worth its price. You just cant compare the killing potential of a T0 mortar to a pak howie tho. Dont forget that USF mortars are par on OST ones too.

If pineapple grenades had no man power cost then the mortar would be a good investment. You need grenades with mortar smoke to clear building or mgs. The usf mortar is seen as a bad investment, and if you force usf choose between a crappy mortar and a nerfed pak Howie there will be very few usf mains in 2's and up.

People comparing pak howie to pwerfer only confirms tha pak howies are op, because they come earlier, no fuel, no micro required. To compare pak howie to howitzers make it worse, since they do cost fuel too and are doctrinal.

What does any of that post have to do with what you quoted from me? Extent of my argument:

If we are nerfing the pak howy further, give it 6 men back. Having such an expensive team weapon get de-crewed so easily seems like a bad way to balance it. Weakening (not removing IMO) auto-fire makes a lot more sense.

I am not opposed to pak howy nerfs so idk why you're talking to me about "justifying its current performance. I am only opposed to the route they took in nerfing it before; no one asked for the crew size to be tweaked, they just dropped that change in out of nowhere

What does any of that post have to do with what you quoted from me? Extent of my argument:

If we are nerfing the pak howy further, give it 6 men back. Having such an expensive team weapon get de-crewed so easily seems like a bad way to balance it. Weakening (not removing IMO) auto-fire makes a lot more sense.

I am not opposed to pak howy nerfs so idk why you're talking to me about "justifying its current performance. I am only opposed to the route they took in nerfing it before; no one asked for the crew size to be tweaked, they just dropped that change in out of nowhere

The quote on your post was answered on the first paragraph, i do not need to do a double post to let people know when i stopped answering a quote. I dont think pak howies are ´easlily´ decrewed if not by a flanking attack (a natural counter) or a wstuka rocket (another natural counter), other than those pak howies can endure as much as they dish out damage, in the back lines. It is not wether they are useful by themselves, because they are not, but as a attack support weapon a pak howie easily can focus damage with mainline units and the result of that is as i said, overperforming. To remove auto attack is to stop this from being a braindead unit to harrass enemy lines withouth risk when USF goes turtle style

Maybe it was not you who justified the lack of rocket arty on usf but im pretty sure other people did.

If pineapple grenades had no man power cost then the mortar would be a good investment. You need grenades with mortar smoke to clear building or mgs. The usf mortar is seen as a bad investment, and if you force usf choose between a crappy mortar and a nerfed pak Howie there will be very few usf mains in 2's and up.

If the world was pink and the game was balanced, this whole section of the forums wouldnt exist neither.
Please use a logic argument to justify your plain oppinions.
Mortars get the job done, they are antisynergic for USF early rush but they do their job for their current price. Pinaples are a cheap way to deal damage to garrisons but mortars simply deny anything garrison able to the enemy. Please do not use expressions like ´crappy mortar´ because you dont get the best of them.
A nerfed pak howie is what should have been as soon as USF got a tech rework.
But the kid now likes its new toy and it has to move on, wether it cries or not.

or a wstuka rocket (another natural counter), other than those pak howies can endure as much as they dish out damage, in the back lines.

It's not just a natural counter its literally undodgeable for the pak howy. I've lost a ton of pak howies despite moving the very instant I heard the rockets.

i do not need to do a double post to let people know when i stopped answering a quote.

A) im not asking you too, just write a line beneath the last sentence directed at me:
_______
B) you just double posted anyway?

This might be offtopic but rather interesting too.
Look how often SU unit get meganerfed for being overperfoming even when their original design was to snowball and force drastic changes (demos, B4, M42, Quads, maxims and conscripts) and how much they need and get overall versatility (cons buff, svts drop, m42 buff, paras, t34 ai buff) and now look how USF with their new tech rework has all the versatility it needed but their playerbase resist to accept adjusting nerfs (M36,scots,pakhowie,mainline inf) like it was unfair.
In other words there is a subtle balance between a faction versatility and raw impact and its not im against USF im against unbalance, same units openings and exploits.

USF has plenty of units in its rooster, let the balance team give a place for each one

...
A) im not asking you too, just write a line beneath the last sentence directed at me:
_______
B) you just double posted anyway?

Sadly i am not as personal as you would like me to be, i just wont draw a line because someone needs to, unless we were friends or something (if you want PM me). But i will try to make my post clearer from now on. Tnx for the feedback

I did double post for the sake of chronology, in other words i had to say different things in different time spaces, to answer different people or to simply add new content. Today i had a free day to invest reading and taking care for the forums and the game.

It's not just a natural counter its literally undodgeable for the pak howy. I've lost a ton of pak howies despite moving the very instant I heard the rockets.

I do agree with you about wstukas destroying teamweapons, its something they do. Its annoying and the time frame to dodge is very small. But thats their job, they have to blast of static team weapons. I do not see other way to dislodge long range weapons at long range. To have a vulnerability doesnt make the unit worthless or easily killable, just against mechanized OKW dont bet on your pak howies. At least you can still crew them back, RE are pretty cheap compared to those OKW sturmpios (because we were clashing OKW wstuka vs USF pakhowie)

Sadly i am not as personal as you would like me to be, i just wont draw a line because someone needs to, unless we were friends or something (if you want PM me).

What are you talking about? It has nothing to do with being personal, its literally just a courtesy for clarity's sake...

I do agree with you about wstukas destroying teamweapons, its something they do. Its annoying and the time frame to dodge is very small. But thats their job, they have to blast of static team weapons. I do not see other way to dislodge long range weapons at long range.

I'm not talking about team weapons just the pak howy. I have little issue dodging walking stuka with other team weapons, unless I guess wrong where the rockets are going. With pak howy it doesnt matter what you guess, chances are its dead

What are you talking about? It has nothing to do with being personal, its literally just a courtesy for clarity's sake...

Jump back to quoted post8 Jul 2019, 22:01 PMdistrofio

... But i will try to make my post clearer from now on. Tnx for the feedback

I'm not talking about team weapons just the pak howy. I have little issue dodging walking stuka with other team weapons, unless I guess wrong where the rockets are going. With pak howy it doesnt matter what you guess, chances are its dead

Why would you go pak howie vs mechanized OKW in the first place then?

Why would you go pak howie vs mechanized OKW in the first place then?

MG34s? And How would you know they went mechanized? The tech is more expensive than full captain tech, and you'd still need to see one of the 3 vehicles to know unless you stumble upon the building itself. Not to mention, captain tech includes your counter to mechanized.

Pak howy is also good for trying to destroy an agressive flak hq, regardless of first tech

The usf mortar fills the role that it's supposed to very well. It's mobile fire support, mainly for smoke but also to give usf a non grenade option for garrisons. It's not supposed to be as good as osts because it's not designed to. Intentionally!if it was equal to the OST one it wouldn't be an option to replace grenades it WOULD replace grenades. Why wouldn't you get it? Ost mortar is great! And then you don't have to worry about 4 man squads and static dps.....

The usf mortar fills the role that it's supposed to very well. It's mobile fire support, mainly for smoke but also to give usf a non grenade option for garrisons. It's not supposed to be as good as osts because it's not designed to. Intentionally!if it was equal to the OST one it wouldn't be an option to replace grenades it WOULD replace grenades. Why wouldn't you get it? Ost mortar is great! And then you don't have to worry about 4 man squads and static dps.....

It has really bad rng and usf has to tech grenades for the smoke to be useful. I will never use this unit if I can use mortar halftrack,pak howie's, or rear echelon rifle grenades. The other option is to play Soviets or Brits who have an easier time in narrow maps. I have never lost to someone going full support builds when I'm Soviets. I build a sniper and snipe his mgs, while my opponent can't touch me. But that is his choice for going full retard and doubling or trippling down on mgs.

USF mortar just for smoke? Aren't you downplay it bit much? It just slightly shorter max range, but still outrange support teams. It is faster reload and more accurate aoe. It is very good to kill static wehr units, more so than wehr mortar vs usf..

The wehr mortar is above the usf mortar, and usf don't have mgs to stop enemies from pushing. You don't know ,as Usf, if ostheer is going to open with mgs or opening with a sniper build. Obviously in 1's you can outcap your enemy,but In 2's and up building a mortar is suicidal vs similarly skilled players. If your opponent went with a sniper build, your mortar is useless. If he builds a mortar, your mortar gets countered. It is the same if you try to counter a pak Howie with the ostheer mortar to a lesser degree, of course.

Wehr mortar has just 5 more range than usf, you need to be really pro to maximise that little advantage imo. Usf mortar is faster and more accurate. I don't see it being hard counter as easily. I play 2v2 and some usf goes double mortars in certain maps, and they dominate with the speed and accuracy.

The Pak how has 50% more range than mortar and takes up only 1 more popcap, imo you have such threads, Pak hardcounter wehr team weapons easily

Imo there's much downplaying or stuck in older mindset that wehr team weapons are superior, imo that is not the case now. Team weapons have their own pro and cons and counterable.

Only things like pak how, scott, Churchill, 60 range td with snowball vet bonuses, these are the irritants leftover

Wehr mortar has just 5 more range than usf, you need to be really pro to maximise that little advantage imo. Usf mortar is faster and more accurate. I don't see it being hard counter as easily. I play 2v2 and some usf goes double mortars in certain maps, and they dominate with the speed and accuracy.

The Pak how has 50% more range than mortar and takes up only 1 more popcap, imo you have such threads, Pak hardcounter wehr team weapons easily

The ostheer mortar is more powerful than the usf mortar. The further you go in the ladder the less you will see of the usf mortar. It's a 240 man power unit that has way too much rng to be reliable. It is reliable at missing mgs with its barrage, and if the barrage misses your suppressed rifles or echelon have to retreat. Usf don't have pios with superb vision.