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Shrecks In T2

28 Jun 2019, 18:33 PM
#21
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1



That is my point. AA Halftracks will counter these new T2 skip builds, people just have to let go of their trusted T-70 builds.


But you could already field shreck pgrens long before a t70 arrived. Is the point that there's likely to be more of them in the new patch? Because I dont understand why ppl keep bringing up the t70 in this topic

28 Jun 2019, 18:57 PM
#22
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

That is my point. AA Halftracks can counter these new T2 skip builds and force backteching or severe map control loss until Ostwind arrives. People just have to let go of their trusted builds (like T-70 rush) and adapt.


Both AAHTs kill the 222.

It takes three Panzershreck hits to kill an AAHT, and suppression doesn't stop them firing. Get a second Panzershreck squad (680/200/0 vs 520/0/20 to tech the Pak) and you'll probably kill it outright. An AAHT doesn't force you to sidetech T2 any more than an OKW AAHT forces Soviet to sidetech T2.

Yes, there are things which work against Panzergrenadiers pretty well, but those things also work against T2.

T2's off-meta and bad value even if everyone does switch over to AAHTs.
28 Jun 2019, 19:29 PM
#23
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 960

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jun 2019, 18:57 PMLago
Both AAHTs kill the 222.

It takes three Panzershreck hits to kill an AAHT, and suppression doesn't stop them firing. Get a second Panzershreck squad (640/120/0 vs 520/0/20 to tech the Pak) and you'll probably kill it outright. An AAHT doesn't force you to sidetech T2 any more than an OKW AAHT forces Soviet to sidetech T2.

Yes, there are things which work against Panzergrenadiers pretty well, but those things also work against T2.

T2's off-meta and bad value even if everyone does switch over to AAHTs.


640/200/0 - schrecks are 100 muni per set on Pgrens, and you have to buy them as a set. Also, this assumes a vacuum where the AAHT isn't covered by rifles, which will eat schreck Pgrens since they have almost no AI (2x STGs) and are 4-model squads.

AAHT/Quad/Long-Range AI vehicles are exceedingly effective against T2-skip because of their range, which are less effective against normal T2 due to the Paks range.
28 Jun 2019, 19:42 PM
#24
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 110

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jun 2019, 18:57 PMLago


Both AAHTs kill the 222.

It takes three Panzershreck hits to kill an AAHT, and suppression doesn't stop them firing. Get a second Panzershreck squad (640/120/0 vs 520/0/20 to tech the Pak) and you'll probably kill it outright. An AAHT doesn't force you to sidetech T2 any more than an OKW AAHT forces Soviet to sidetech T2.

Yes, there are things which work against Panzergrenadiers pretty well, but those things also work against T2.

T2's off-meta and bad value even if everyone does switch over to AAHTs.


Actually, 680/200 compared to 520/0/20, and remember, that ostheer is not that much dependent from early fuel than any other faction, but should have a good muni-investment in early game for comfort gameplay.
520 mp and 20 fuel for unit which will not just give you safe space from AAHT, but as well gives you a possibility to build ostwind/PIV even if your opponent is fielding doctrinal mediums.
28 Jun 2019, 19:44 PM
#25
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

The problem with USF is that pzsghreck counter each of USF LV too well. You just need one connection to force the LV to retreat, even if you've been suppressed on the mean time or lost one model. On the mean time USF LVs damage vs infantry has been nerfed some years ago to not punish too strongly Ostheer early game.

Pzgren rush to Ostwind is an abuse of old balance decision. At the moment I don't feel that USF's LVs can take advantage of Ostheer not building T2 to counter them. If the AAHT or stuart had retain their old AI damage vs infantry (stuart completely nerf to shittiest IA possible and AAHT AI cut in half for the record) things would be different but in the current state long range pzfaust + early pzgshreck + ATmine that OS LVs give an critical edge to Ostheer over LV play.
Now since I'm not asking to buff USF Lvs which are balanced in my opinion, I do think Shreck should be tied to T2, Pzgren coming earlier is already a good buff for the Ostheer.

I'm not considering the T70 here which come waaay later than Ostheer T2 anyway.
28 Jun 2019, 19:49 PM
#26
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

640/200/0 - schrecks are 100 muni per set on Pgrens, and you have to buy them as a set. Also, this assumes a vacuum where the AAHT isn't covered by rifles, which will eat schreck Pgrens since they have almost no AI (2x STGs) and are 4-model squads.

AAHT/Quad/Long-Range AI vehicles are exceedingly effective against T2-skip because of their range, which are less effective against normal T2 due to the Paks range.


One Pak is better than one Panzergrenadier squad against an AAHT.

One Pak is not better than two Panzergrenadier squads. Riflemen cover doesn't mean much when the double Shreck squads only need one volley to kill the AAHT outright.

If the Rifles get the advantage over the PGrens, the PGrens retreat. If the rifles get the advantage over the Pak, you lose the Pak to the enemy.

PGrens and Paks were balanced well against each other when they shared the same teching costs. Now that PGrens have a 200 MP 20 FU advantage, they win hands down almost every time.
28 Jun 2019, 20:07 PM
#27
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833



That is my point. AA Halftracks can counter these new T2 skip builds and force backteching or severe map control loss until Ostwind arrives. People just have to let go of their trusted builds (like T-70 rush) and adapt.


Simply false, AAHT isn't a hardcounter to T2 skip at all because you're failing to factor Ost will usually have at least one or two MG42 with magic bullets and tellers. Actually most Soviet players will always go T70 because it's got much more shock factor and not shutdown by a 15muni MG ability.

As I say shreks are not the only tool and ostheer can pump out an ostwind pretty damn quick which leaves you with your pants down and a crappy doctrine while you get hit with a tiger ace lategame and you have nothing but M10 in the case of Brits.

Want to do a T2 skip? Pick a doctrine with airdrop Pak40. There's no reason why we should be stuck in a meta where T2 is ignored until ostwind
28 Jun 2019, 23:13 PM
#28
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned


Simply false, AAHT isn't a hardcounter to T2 skip at all because you're failing to factor Ost will usually have at least one or two MG42 with magic bullets and tellers. Actually most Soviet players will always go T70 because it's got much more shock factor and not shutdown by a 15muni MG ability.



You'd be right if the magic bullets on the mg42 somehow had a magical range as well, being able to outrange an AAHT.

29 Jun 2019, 01:15 AM
#29
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1

I think the poll says it all. Case closed.
29 Jun 2019, 01:16 AM
#30
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

people like fast ostwind lol

29 Jun 2019, 08:53 AM
#31
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2019, 01:15 AMFarlion
I think the poll says it all. Case closed.


The poll is a 53/47 split at the moment. There's nothing conclusive about it.
29 Jun 2019, 09:01 AM
#32
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2019, 08:53 AMLago


The poll is a 53/47 split at the moment. There's nothing conclusive about it.

That's more balanced then some match-ups in game.
29 Jun 2019, 09:03 AM
#33
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2019, 09:01 AMKatitof
That's more balanced then some match-ups in game.


Are you just repeating what I said?
29 Jun 2019, 09:05 AM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2019, 09:03 AMLago


Are you just repeating what I said?

No, I'm basically +1-ing it.
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