Ostheer T2 Skip

The hot topic at the moment is the impact of Ostheer's (much needed) core roster buffs.

Firstly, the Ostwind provides a very potent solution to Ostheer's midgame anti-infantry problem: it's now a veritable wrecking ball on par with the Centaur.

Secondly, Panzergrenadiers are now BP1 T0, which means they hit the field faster. This also allows you to safely skip T2, accelerating T3 by 20 FU and giving you an extra 200 MP to spend on units.

It's early days and we don't know if any adjustments are actually needed.

However, in the event that they are, I've got a good idea for how to do it with without adjusting the performance of the units.

Move some of the resource cost from Leichte Mechanized Kompanie (Ostheer T2) to Battle Phase 1. Moving resource cost between these two allows you to fine-tune T2 skips and Panzergrenadier timings with minimal knock-on effects.

Moving Manpower
Shifting manpower from T2 to BP1 reduces the manpower advantage of skipping T2.

Moving Fuel
Moving fuel from T2 to BP1 slows down Panzergrenadiers by that much, and slows down a T2 skip by the same amount.

This is potentially a clever way to tone down these particular strategies (again, if necessary) without smashing anything with the nerf bat.

I mean would not that cause a kind of nerf and disadvantageous shift in early-mid gameplay if it costs more manpower and fuel than it does now?

Even then, the timing to acquire light vehicles would no longer be viable if that were to happen. Even harder to acquire units also which would also create problems.

I mean it is not like they are currently overwhelming. I do see the point however, if they are in that case too strong, some adjustments may be required. At the moment, I do not really see why!

Currently I think the "general changes" they received are in a better/fixed position, functions as it should according to the roles/prices/timing!

Specifically Pzgrens and Ostwinds are better the way they are now. They are not the problem. It is the Tiger Ace timing!

I mean the teching has been always this way, whether you want to skip the 3rd base to last for better tanks and in other ways.

Skipping T2 is a huge disadvantage because you need an AT gun which provides great AT support. Light vehicles that can bring a shift to the early-mid game.

If they dont make use of the T2, they be easily exploited because support weapons and light vehicles are critical in early-mid gameplay for territorial control/gains!

I do not see how it is neccessary now! Just saying!

I'd rather see a small cost increase for the Ostwind. It's on par with the Centaur now, but with better speed instead of better armor. 280 manpower and 100 fuel seems about right. Would reduce the effectiveness of rushing it.

If T2 cost was adjusted however, perhaps some of the manpower cost of T2 could be shifted towards the light vehicles. Something like 120 manpower for the Kampenya, with light vehicles costing around 240 manpower. Would make the PAK40 easier to get and reduce the potency of cheesy light vehicle spam.

I mean would not that cause a kind of nerf and disadvantageous shift in early-mid gameplay if it costs more manpower and fuel than it does now?

No, it wouldn't, so long as you keep the totals the same.

If you increase BP1 to 200 MP 50 FU and reduce T2 to 100 MP 10 FU, the cost of teching T2 remains the same.

BP1 hits 10 FU slower, meaning Panzergrenadiers, 250 HTs and Grenadier upgrades come online 10 FU slower. Skipping T2 has a 100 MP 10 FU lower resource reword.

You could also shift some of T2's costs to BP2 to reduce the T2 skipping reward without adjusting BP1.

Forgot to mention, the proper way to nerf T2 skip would be to lock Schrecks behind the Kampenya building. It would keep your strong AT options behind your 200 manpower investment like it was all previous patches. Can't be sure if this is necessary however, until the meta has settled down.

The way pgrens currently are does offer some options to vary up gameplay and it seems going 222 is still popular despite of all the changes.

We keep seeing references to the Centaur but surely I'm not the only one who thinks the Centaur is useless?

We keep seeing references to the Centaur but surely I'm not the only one who thinks the Centaur is useless?

The Centaur isn't useless, it's just that the strength of Tommy spam has made it obsolete.

We keep seeing references to the Centaur but surely I'm not the only one who thinks the Centaur is useless?

You are the only one.

We keep seeing references to the Centaur but surely I'm not the only one who thinks the Centaur is useless?

It's an incredibly powerful anti-infantry tank. That thing annihilates Grenadier squads.

You don't see it as much because the UKF meta is Section Spam, and (like the Ostwind) the Centaur needs some hefty AT support to work.

The Centaur isn't useless, it's just that the strength of Tommy spam has made it obsolete.

Or the fact that a snail with a sore arse could get there twice as fast as the Centaur.

I always wait for 110 more fuel and get a cromwell instead. Or just play USSR/USF and enjoy playing a non-gimped faction.

Bearing in mind I don't play 1v1 so that may have an impact on my opinion.

Or the fact that a snail with a sore arse could get there twice as fast as the Centaur.

I always wait for 110 more fuel and get a cromwell instead. Or just play USSR/USF and enjoy playing a non-gimped faction.

Bearing in mind I don't play 1v1 so that may have an impact on my opinion.

The Cromwell's AI is pathetic compared to the Centaur.

Maybe, I dunno, counter the weakness of that strategy, instead of nerfing it?

Maybe, I dunno, counter the weakness of that strategy, instead of nerfing it?

Did you read the thread?

Did you read the thread?

Yeah. You're making an argument to nerf a particular Ostheer strategy that is incredibly easy to counter. Saying "if necessary" doesn't negate that.

Yeah. You're making an argument to nerf a particular Ostheer strategy that is incredibly easy to counter.

So go ahead and explain it then. Saying "it's not an issue you just need to play better" is a massively useless contribution

So go ahead and explain it then. Saying "it's not an issue you just need to play better" is a massively useless contribution

Now look who's trying to drag this conversation into the salt mines.....
I don't see u harassing an allied player if he made the same comment.

Not much time have gone afterpatch, people adopt slooooowly.

There is no problem in pgrens with pshreks, problem is that people want a T70.
Before patch T70 was a great choice against ostheer, because ostheer needed to bring in field more manpower and munitions just to counter it, or suffer from bad map control while T70 is uncountered.
Things havent changed, there still be another option for soviets in case of pshreks on field: the quad.
It is cheap and you pay exactly the same price for quad upgrade than ostheer for pshreks. Quad definitely will stand against pshreks because of suppression, and force ostheer to get a pak for countering. T2 is not skipped, voila.
(btw quad and T70 is deadly combo)
People just are accustumed to build orders, and they need to change them after this patch.

Yeah. You're making an argument to nerf a particular Ostheer strategy that is incredibly easy to counter. Saying "if necessary" doesn't negate that.

No, I'm suggesting a means to nerf it that I believe elegantly avoids the knock-on effects of nerfing the units directly.

Whether or not adjustments are necessary is a question for the balance team.

I agree with OP ideas.

But imo people have not accepted the OST changes yet. The buffs made the faction interesting in 1v1 again. But to adapt openings and plays takes time.

I would like to see this patch settle for a while after tweaking teching+buildings cost.

If OST playerbase starts spamming the T2 skip, then we have a situation worth nerfing. But AFAIK its not the case, at least in teamgames

Now look who's trying to drag this conversation into the salt mines.....
I don't see u harassing an allied player if he made the same comment.

Then you are blind. Go read through the Ostwind thread if you care this much about my posts. I literally just did this to an allied player like 10 times in a row

I just asked him to explain his point, you're the only one going completely off topic