Ostwind's penetrations

The old Ostwind was outperformed by a P4 with pintle, so it definitely needed an AI buff. Most 1v1 Ost players sticked to spamming P4's for their AI needs, while ignoring both the Ostwind and Brummbar, because neither were cost efficient enough. I've personally had the old Ostwind lose a straight up fight against a single M-42 AT gun, which was quite saddening (it attacked an unsupported M-42 and had to back up with like 10% hp left, having killed only 3 models ). The Brummbar has a strong role in team games.

With the Ostwind being a real tank again, a cost increase to 100 fuel seems in order. It has Centaur-like performance now, but trades armor for speed. The fuel increase would give Allied players more time to prepare.

a specialist AT infantry with snare is some threat to a medium tank? wow you're a genius, that is how it is suppose to work.. not that it is reliable against something as quick as an pv4... ie the panzer is extremely effective @ AI..

First of all, thanx for pointing it out. I dont usually present myself as a genius because i do have manners.
On the other side maybe you forgot to complete the tutorial before playing COH2, because riflemen zook is NOT a specialist AT infantry, it is a mainline all arounder inf with handheld AT and all mainline infantries have a snare. Because they fight off from the begining of the game from LVs to later HT. Its the game design.
A Pz4 being able to kill your riflemen zook is a L2P issue, we sadly cant address now, because as i said earlier, its a bad trade.
Gosh! Allied mediums are extremelier effective than infantry too! But somehow wheraboos dont cry in every room about it

Extremely effective AI is a KV8 Flamethrower, A crocodile, a Pzwerfer, WStuka o a Katyusha.
Extremely effective AI infantry is Vet5 Obers with 2 MG34, Vet3 Double BAR riflemen or maybe a well played sniper, even the couple pathes ago JLI was extremely effective to the point it was problematic.
If Pz4 was Extremely effective vs infantry, then by your eyes Oswinds are Ubermachinnen instawipers7000 from a near future.

Maybe actually learn to play instead of pretending to know what you are talking about when it comes to balance

Im not loosing my riflemen to Pz4... I guess i know something you dont.
Good luck finishing the COH2 tutorial.
Cheers

PS: Leaked photo of ankle's Pz4
Show Spoiler

Combined arms is not the issue and any attempt to make that argument is simplistic. The issue is that the ostwind and pgrenz were overbuffed and when used together are cheesy and braindead stupid. Numerous arguments have been made opposing unit power creep and the balance team dismiss those arguments on the basis they know better. Nothing is more frustrating than increased probability of squad wipesand that is exactly what this patch has done.

Would you agree that OST was on the lowest side of all factions on previous patches? Have you been playing/watching streams of 1v1s? Do you only play allied factions?

The 'cheesy and braindead stupid' definition of your seems to point a well stablished and probably a well played OST player. It also seems to be that you were not axis in that game.

Its fun you mention powercreep, because ostwind is clearly not. There were former discussions from its underperformance and unlike some ranting post, people did agree there that the unit needed a buff and wich one. You are free to find it and check it out.
There was no ninja buff, no buff after buff each patch, no fanboyism crying for buffs.

From the begining of this thread all i see now is ranting fanbois being overconfident playing against OST. Wich i find hilarious.
But thats none of my business.

AI vehicle coupled with AI infantry eats infantry.. Very brain dead and stupid. HOW did we not foresee this!?!? I've also noticed since last patch pak walls and elefant are DEVISTATING to armour. Lelic pls!

Pgrens bleed like a whore. Bleed em. Make em suffer. The same Ole punishments for Ost squad sizes will exists. Drop 2 models and they have to run. Only difference is now they have an AI vehicle that's more durable then the FHT (but the same tools work against it!) you know it's coming... Maybe less BARs for the blob and slap on a zook! All AT guns still work... Medium tanks arnt much later if you manage to keep it at bay by utilizing its counters... It's just a shooken meta and nobody is willing to adapt.

First of all, thanx for pointing it out. I dont usually present myself as a genius because i do have manners.
On the other side maybe you forgot to complete the tutorial before playing COH2, because riflemen zook is NOT a specialist AT infantry, it is a mainline all arounder inf with handheld AT and all mainline infantries have a snare. Because they fight off from the begining of the game from LVs to later HT. Its the game design.
A Pz4 being able to kill your riflemen zook is a L2P issue, we sadly cant address now, because as i said earlier, its a bad trade.
Gosh! Allied mediums are extremelier effective than infantry too! But somehow wheraboos dont cry in every room about it

Extremely effective AI is a KV8 Flamethrower, A crocodile, a Pzwerfer, WStuka o a Katyusha.
Extremely effective AI infantry is Vet5 Obers with 2 MG34, Vet3 Double BAR riflemen or maybe a well played sniper, even the couple pathes ago JLI was extremely effective to the point it was problematic.
If Pz4 was Extremely effective vs infantry, then by your eyes Oswinds are Ubermachinnen instawipers7000 from a near future.



Im not loosing my riflemen to Pz4... I guess i know something you dont.
Good luck finishing the COH2 tutorial.
Cheers

PS: Leaked photo of ankle's Pz4
Show Spoiler

Well said @distrofio. +1, Honesty/Manners is key! Point stated! Bravo!

Or your satire just sucks? And made your point less clear?

You made multiple serious posts on this page so idk why you couldnt just answer his question

Because this hole thread is satire.

Somebody loses his T34 because of stupidity. Now we are speak about nerfing an unit, which performs well. Some times ago there was also a thread about nerfing 222, because an idiot lost his T34.

Sherman shreds infantry, nobody cares. 105mm Sherman is better than Brummbär, nobody cares. Scott oneshots PaK-crews sometimes... -> nobody cares.

And now we are speaking about Ostwind? xD Come one...

I am glad that improvements have been made in the game. Good Job Devs.

They did particularly a great job on most of the "General Changes", which brought a lot of balance and diversity content.

The only issue is some of the Commander changes mostly the Tiger Ace timing which comes way too early, needs changing.

Osteehr had been in a weak spot for a long time due to lacking a viable selection of units. It was limited with Grens all the time which placed them a terrible weak spot against infantry. Ostwind was crap meaning even a harder time to deal with infantry even more!

Osteehr is still weak with infantry (as they are vulnerable still to indirect fire, 4 man, you know it!) but at least now they do have a better chance of surviving now!

Before the patch: Ostwind (which was not doing its job against infantry) being undermined as well as Pzgrens (timing and lack of usuage cuz of it).
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Devs have brought beautiful changes that made this game better and even closer to the light!
These are small steps. You cant expect all the changes to appear as you please. Guess how long it took before improvements arrived for the Ostwind and Pzgrens. Anyway, the point is, they made that happen. That is the point. The Devs are doing a great job in improving this game!

Nerfing everything with what was improved with Osteehr or anything else is simply an irrational decision.

Rather we should seek also to make improvements with other factions.

I suggest we should focus next on improving is SU, Cons upgrade coming earlier and Maxim being improved also.
Also solve OKW's AT issues Raketenwerfer and Sturmpio AT.
Those are my thoughts thus far!

Devs, ignore the people who despise your efforts. Continue to make this game better! You are doing great! Appreciate the effort!

The old Ostwind was outperformed by a P4 with pintle, so it definitely needed an AI buff. Most 1v1 Ost players sticked to spamming P4's for their AI needs, while ignoring both the Ostwind and Brummbar, because neither were cost efficient enough. I've personally had the old Ostwind lose a straight up fight against a single M-42 AT gun, which was quite saddening (it attacked an unsupported M-42 and had to back up with like 10% hp left, having killed only 3 models ). The Brummbar has a strong role in team games.

With the Ostwind being a real tank again, a cost increase to 100 fuel seems in order. It has Centaur-like performance now, but trades armor for speed. The fuel increase would give Allied players more time to prepare.

it was outperformed by P4 because P4 is one of the best AI mediums in the game. P4 with pintle is actually even better AI DPS than comet

Sherman shreds infantry, nobody cares. 105mm Sherman is better than Brummbär, nobody cares. Scott oneshots PaK-crews sometimes... -> nobody cares.

What are you talking about? Is this more satire? Can you stop making massive generalizations about the community? Read through this thread, most people have pushed back against big nerfs to the unit.

I minor cost increase is probably warranted, that often happens when a unit receives a decent amount of buffs

it was outperformed by P4 because P4 is one of the best AI mediums in the game. P4 with pintle is actually even better AI DPS than comet

It makes more DPS, but is easier to counter. Not all more expensive vehicles have more dps. Comet e.g. is difficult to finish, better surviveability than P4

What are you talking about? Is this more satire? Can you stop making massive generalizations about the community? Read through this thread, most people have pushed back against big nerfs to the unit.

I minor cost increase is probably warranted, that often happens when a unit receives a decent amount of buffs

Why I am so angry? Because I know why people are so salty, their T70 now got a counter and Ostwind is able to make some damage now. Soviets still try to outplay Ost by old broken mechanics, after their OP tools got counters they now see how bad their micro and tactics is.

I lost many vehicles because of Bofors or Centaur when a plan went wrong. But I would never waist a P4 by drive into two Centaures AND then cry and say it is op.

it was outperformed by P4 because P4 is one of the best AI mediums in the game. P4 with pintle is actually even better AI DPS than comet

It was outperformed because the Ostwind was a terrible AI tank. The Ostheer P4 only has average AI performance if you consider other factions their stock offerings:

Cromwell < T34 < Ost P4 < OKW P4 < HE Sherman

The Comet has even worse AI than a pintled Panther, so it's not really a good comparison. That tank is due for a buff imo, it thrives at nothing currently.

Buffing Comet? Churchill is too attractive, that is why you don't see it that often.

Better overwork UK teching, let Comet and Churchill be builtable at same time. Make Corc and Avre be a limited upgrade for chruchill etc.

it was outperformed by P4 because P4 is one of the best AI mediums in the game. P4 with pintle is actually even better AI DPS than comet

Maybe the word you seek is "reliable" instead of 'best'. A single Pz4 shot is as effective as shermans AP. But shermas HE wreks havok with its AOE to the smallest squad size infantry ingame.
Even T34 were treated to be better at AI (we have to admit it, it sucked and still needs a little umph)

But in the current patch Pz4 are far from The best AI tank.
So if we can use some basic logic:
Allied mediums > Pz4 > Allied mediums

It is certainly a good all arounder and reliable tank, good AT paired with good AI and good durability. That is priceless and even more for OST. Pintle mount does wonders to it, it gives the extra AI for early midgame and gives a useful AA.
Buf Pz4 is far from undefeatable and is the iconic tank of OST. Its simply a good tank and there are other options, therefore no need to change it currently.

It is worth mentioning that if Pz4 shots are reliable to infantry you can bait it to shot infantry and charge it with TDs after, its 1 shot advantage there.

Why I am so angry? Because I know why people are so salty, their T70 now got a counter and Ostwind is able to make some damage now.

By "people" I hope you mean the vast minority of people in this forum. No reason the rest of us can't have a regular discussion as we are

But I would never waist a P4 by drive into two Centaures AND then cry and say it is op.

Yeah instead you'll whine about an argument from one person as if the entire community supports it. Do you at least agree the Ostwind might need a cost increase? Cause that's as far as most of us are willing to go right now (according to this thread at least)

Most think it's performance should be this good, just maybe a little more expensive

By "people" I hope you mean the vast minority of people in this forum. No reason the rest of us can't have a regular discussion as we are
...

But some of those "people" are the ones that screams the loudest witouth any given reason other than keep the right voices down. I think some of the overreaction is provoked by the unadequate expression of that minority.

Is it quite contradictory to use vast+minority, or is it just me that im not native english speaker?

To get angry is to give food to the trolls in the forum, keep your cool, smart people dont follow dumb directions (most of time)

But some of those "people" are the ones that screams the loudest witouth any given reason other than keep the right voices down. I think some of the overreaction is provoked by the unadequate expression of that minority.

Is it quite contradictory to use vast+minority, or is it just me that im not native english speaker?

To get angry is to give food to the trolls in the forum, keep your cool, smart people dont follow dumb directions (most of time)

Its very easy to see that the people who were whining about the Ostwind hard in this thread were met with a lot of pushback. I was one of the ones pushing back, so to see people now complaining from the other extreme is frustrating. I dont think asking for a slight cost increase is extreme, but there's clearly more to see since the patch is barely more than a week old

Yeah vast minority is definitely a contradiction. Vast majority is a common phrase so i guess i just swapped it out

Do you at least agree the Ostwind might need a cost increase?

Yes, that sounds good for me.


But still, Ostheer is really weak in early game, until the 15min marker many Wehrmacht-player lose the match, because their weapon-types doesn't work on every map. Pioniere need a small revamp, that would had larger priority than that patch, in my opinion.

mod team marking my comments as trolling when i was just responding in kind without escalating

what is the point of even engaging in this forum if the mods aren't going to be even handed and just censor your side of the argument

Missing the obvious point again? Re-read this: cooldown between shots is now basically half of what it was before, magazine size was increased from 5 to 7. Do you even understand sheer magnitude of these buffs? Imagine lets say KV-8 spewing flames twice as fast or Brummbar reloading 2x faster. Thats an insane and completely unjustified buff that just went through becase "we want Ostwind to be a shock vehicle, kinda like T-70 much better in every way"

I am not sure you understand the change:
DPS of the ostwind vs t34/76 before patch

5.8/5.6/4.8/4.0/3.2
after

12.4/10.3/7.4/5.8/4.3

the change is
214% 1.85% 1.55% 1.46% 1.36%

the change is only close to double at range 0 which is unrealistic, at long range is only 146%-136%.

VS infatry you seem to forget
"AOE can now only hit two models max per squad."

Your KV-8/Brumbar analogy is simply false.