Some thoughts on the new Rear Echelon grenades:
They're intended to serve a similar role to flamers: a cover/garrison counter. They achieve that role, but the way you counter them is different.
To counter a flamer, you move your squad out of cover. The flamer then becomes less effective.
To counter Echelon grenades, you move your squad. Repeatedly.
This results a unit that is fairly ineffective when the opponent is looking at it, but has a sudden powerspike if the opponent looks away.
That is to say, Grenade REs aren't that good power-wise but they're really annoying. They work by overheating the opponent's micro, and that just isn't fun to deal with.
While I'd rather see them swapped out entirely in favour of the flamer, perhaps the autofiring grenades could be replaced with a manually targeted barrage ability? That'd be much less irritating than the autofiring grenades.
Echelon Grenades
17 Jun 2019, 14:26 PM
#1
Posts: 3260
17 Jun 2019, 14:31 PM
#2
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
The grenades are fine IMO but what I don´t like is that the rear echelons can shoot them out of buildings. Unless you have a flamer nearby it´s super annoying to deal with. Just imagine Rails and Metall and a RE in the building next to the fuel dishing out rifle grenades while the riflemen chill in cover and you can`t do anything about it because you cant stay stationary.
17 Jun 2019, 16:16 PM
#3
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
yeah garrison hopping with the RE nades forces your opponet to constantly move, abandon the position or bring in a flamer (good luck WFA and UKF). The grenades themselves aren't amazing but they get the job done, they're just annoying as hell.
17 Jun 2019, 16:53 PM
#4
Posts: 45
Permanently BannedIt's almost like you have to micro your units just like against gewehrgranate. Weird!
17 Jun 2019, 16:55 PM
#5
Posts: 3260
It's almost like you have to micro your units just like against gewehrgranate. Weird!
Grenade abilities are manually targeted and consume a non-insignificant chunk of munitions with every use.
If you think they're comparable mechanics, I question your judgement.
17 Jun 2019, 17:19 PM
#6
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
How does it perform vs mortar or flamnade?
17 Jun 2019, 17:27 PM
#7
Posts: 607
That's the big gimmick of the commander though. If you scrap it, then you basically burned a commander to buff dozer blades and the Calliope.
Yeah it's annoying but so are self-spotting bunkers and mortar emplacements.
Yeah it's annoying but so are self-spotting bunkers and mortar emplacements.
17 Jun 2019, 18:07 PM
#8
Posts: 351
Have you tried RE spam with this commander yet? If you can keep the game competitive till everything comes online, 6 REs firing these things all over the place is pretty hilarious.
17 Jun 2019, 18:48 PM
#9
Posts: 3260
That's the big gimmick of the commander though. If you scrap it, then you basically burned a commander to buff dozer blades and the Calliope.
Yeah it's annoying but so are self-spotting bunkers and mortar emplacements.
Replacing it with flamers would be a buff to the commander in my opinion.
The grenades aren't powerful, they're just really annoying. It's a little like present day MG spam: it relies on overheating micro, and when it fails at that it gets crunched.
17 Jun 2019, 19:19 PM
#10
Posts: 607
Replacing it with flamers would be a buff to the commander in my opinion.
The grenades aren't powerful, they're just really annoying. It's a little like present day MG spam: it relies on overheating micro, and when it fails at that it gets crunched.
I know, I am mostly underwhelmed with them as well (and they're quite pricey to upgrade for how non-powerful it is). But my point stands -- it's pretty much the main toy in this commander other than cover-to-cover.
17 Jun 2019, 20:19 PM
#11
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
You people know they have massive minimum range?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
17 Jun 2019, 21:18 PM
#12
Posts: 607
Yeah, I believe it's what causes the "my REs just run up instead of shooting" issue some are reporting as a bug.
17 Jun 2019, 21:19 PM
#13
Posts: 960
It's another unit that 'hard' counters OST units with little to no user input, much like mortars, MHTs, Scotts, and Pack-Howies.
It's not going to be 'fun' to play against when your units designed around being static (MG42, LMG Grens) are forced to move constantly by units requiring almost zero user input (just put them behind your rifles).
I completely agree with OP's suggestion: remove auto-fire from RE-RifleNades completely, and instead give them a 'barrage' ability with a higher RoF.
It's not going to be 'fun' to play against when your units designed around being static (MG42, LMG Grens) are forced to move constantly by units requiring almost zero user input (just put them behind your rifles).
I completely agree with OP's suggestion: remove auto-fire from RE-RifleNades completely, and instead give them a 'barrage' ability with a higher RoF.
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
17 Jun 2019, 21:25 PM
#14
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
It's another unit that 'hard' counters OST units with little to no user input, much like mortars, MHTs, Scotts, and Pack-Howies.
It's not going to be 'fun' to play against when your units designed around being static (MG42, LMG Grens) are forced to move constantly by units requiring almost zero user input (just put them behind your rifles).
I completely agree with OP's suggestion: remove auto-fire from RE-RifleNades completely, and instead give them a 'barrage' ability with a higher RoF.
It doesn't even hardcounter HMGs in buildings, unless there is a LOS blocker on the way.
It does however hardcounter passive players with extend of micro not surpassing easy AI who never used any other hotkey then a-move.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
17 Jun 2019, 21:25 PM
#15
Posts: 1166 | Subs: 1
Reduce the range. They shoot WAYYYY too far. They can shoot over buildings and cover. Other than that they seem ok. Damage is where it should be.
17 Jun 2019, 21:26 PM
#16
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Reduce the range. They shoot WAYYYY too far. They can shoot over buildings and cover.
That's the point of rifle nades.
Have you ever played ost?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
17 Jun 2019, 21:33 PM
#17
19 Posts: 1295 | Subs: 1
This is an interesting and overall good addon to the american faction that only needs a few tweaks. But yes currently they are a bit crazy.
1. Increase the scatter of the grenades. Currently, the grenade fires right into an enemy unit almost dead nuts every shot, change this to decrease the accuracy. I could see people spamming these and causing absurd problems in long range engagement maps. Keep its accuracy vs buildings normal as it is intended to be anti building.
2. Decrease the distance that they can be fired at. They shouldent have to get as close as flamethrowers to fire the grenade, but the current "max" distance is nutty. Change the minimum range to accommodate the max range modification.
1. Increase the scatter of the grenades. Currently, the grenade fires right into an enemy unit almost dead nuts every shot, change this to decrease the accuracy. I could see people spamming these and causing absurd problems in long range engagement maps. Keep its accuracy vs buildings normal as it is intended to be anti building.
2. Decrease the distance that they can be fired at. They shouldent have to get as close as flamethrowers to fire the grenade, but the current "max" distance is nutty. Change the minimum range to accommodate the max range modification.
17 Jun 2019, 21:39 PM
#18
Posts: 960
It doesn't even hardcounter HMGs in buildings, unless there is a LOS blocker on the way.
It does however hardcounter passive players with extend of micro not surpassing easy AI who never used any other hotkey then a-move.
It does vs. HMGs outside of buildings, which is pretty common. There's also smoke, LOS blockers as you said... Really, there's a lot of situations where they're countering MGs.
Meanwhile, I'm not sure how you're supposed to micro LMG grens: they need to stay static to fire.
That's the point of rifle nades.
Have you ever played ost?
One is a muni-heavy (early game), single round, 'skill-shot', the other is a single-time muni cost, auto-firing weapon requiring no user input outside of being 'in-range'. They're not comparable.
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
17 Jun 2019, 21:50 PM
#19
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
It does vs. HMGs outside of buildings, which is pretty common. There's also smoke, LOS blockers as you said... Really, there's a lot of situations where they're countering MGs.
There is a mechanic for them specifically for that issue.
Suppressed RETs will not shoot accurate nades.
If you are flanked, even CEs would hardcounter you.
Meanwhile, I'm not sure how you're supposed to micro LMG grens: they need to stay static to fire.
For example, by not sitting at max range and getting inside dead zone of RETs? They aren't going to do much with these carbines of theirs.
One is a muni-heavy (early game), single round, 'skill-shot', the other is a single-time muni cost, auto-firing weapon requiring no user input outside of being 'in-range'. They're not comparable.
And both are projectiles that go over LOS blockers.
Mechanically they are exact the same.
Balance of them is not comparable as they serve 2 different purposes.
In fact, all grenades behave that way, regardless how you launch them.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
17 Jun 2019, 22:24 PM
#20
1 Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4
Should make it a free targeted ability once it's upgraded.
20 second cooldown.
Requires just as much micro from the user as the guy on the receiving end. Nerfs blobbed REs. Seriously, 2 RE with nades and one rifleman to protect them is massively cancerous.
Auto-firing grenades on infantry is a really awful precedent to set. Can you give a reason why this ability should be the only ability that auto fires? It was different when they were locked to the fighting pit. Make this a free targeted ability so it actually involves some skill.
20 second cooldown.
Requires just as much micro from the user as the guy on the receiving end. Nerfs blobbed REs. Seriously, 2 RE with nades and one rifleman to protect them is massively cancerous.
Auto-firing grenades on infantry is a really awful precedent to set. Can you give a reason why this ability should be the only ability that auto fires? It was different when they were locked to the fighting pit. Make this a free targeted ability so it actually involves some skill.
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