TO JUSTIFY OKW NO CACHES, NO BASES REFUND!

Currently as I have stated. Losing a Base, not only mean buying the truck but also reteching and to regain the ability to purchase units. Thus costing you twice as much. There is a lot of downsides with having the way OKW has with their "Truck and Teching System".

Here are reasons why I believe that other factions does somewhat stand out in certain areas than what OKW has to offer

UKF stands out better in fortifications! It can base lock (like OKW PanzerHQ) with the use of Bofors and emplacements creating heavy and better overall fortifications. Cost effective and little risk which makes it all than better than OKW has to lose.

USF stands out better in support weapons! Provides with very strong support weapons that can help cover ground efficiently. Captain base being very strong (the best USF tech choice) as it has all the tools required for pure territorial strength. Better than what OKW has to either offer with either Mech and Med combined.

SU stands out better in AT! Has very powerful AT unit choices especially doctrines that easily counter OKW Mechanized Tech. OKW infantry units cant carry the battle without upgrades since Volks are nothing without weapon upgrades. Heavily reliance is placed on vehicles and use of med kits. Drains excessively ammo and fuel at what cost.

The real main issue is their base teching system being overall unbalanced for their lacking AT capabilities. For the way it currently is, there should be discount for their base after it is destroyed for their lacking AT capabilities. As other factions have just the simplest ability to repair their buildings when destroyed for USF and UKF only. SU and WEHR have to replace but its cheaper and it never gets destroyed.

OKW bases is the only bases in game to ever get destroyed of them all. That is not skill, it is a fact. It is no skill if allied players effortlessly use "ARTY ABILITIES" onto a base, coordinating and focusing fire after one base after another.


OKW suffers in some aspects and how it would be if it were good enough:

1, Very Poor AT capabilities since the units are lackluster, both Raketenwerfer and Sturmpio AT upgrade in game. Does not make up for their losses. This is the main issue. Otherwise it is fine to justify for their difficulties. You can not have a faction with having one downside on top of having another downside on that same area, which is AT and fuel related for OKW in this case. It can not be both.

2, Heavily reliance on both ammo and fuel, fuel mostly. If you go Mech, you sacrifice a lot of ammo meaning Volks will have bolt actions only making them the least effective unit on the field. Volksgrenadiers are only good enough when they have upgrades. Without them, they are easily outmatched by other infantry.

If you go Med, you sacrifice territorial gains since FHT timing is the worst and its overall vulnerability. Vulnerable due to fact Raketenwerfer and Sturmpio AT roles being overall underperforming and lackluster. That explains why their are always easily countered.LEIG which is good but not enough to help in your favour because of the lack of AT (anti tank capabilities which OKW lacks). Med is always a bad teching choice in 1v1. Med Base could be actually a good choice if it were not for the poor and lacking AT utility OKW has got under their sleeves.

As I have said, AT is their main issue and should be resolved. To justify for their losses and inability to produce tanks if they lose any bases by an chance.

**Anti Tank, Anti Tank, Anti Tank :/ **

For me, what would make them justified without caches and refund at all is if they had proper enough AT which they do not have at all. Fuel is something they really desperately need in order to get any chance of having any survivability to counter for their lacking AT capabilities which is currently heavily undermined.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245914/okw-all-raketenwerfer-43-anti-tank#latest
* Another post and look to comment 25# as to why both Raketenwerfer and Sturmpio how it should be changed to fit better as a proper self sufficient AT unit.

In Conclusion. Revamp both Raketenwerfer and Sturmpio AT to fit better their roles and to justify for their lacking capabilities. Then I would say, fine to no caches and no discount! If they have to counter the fuel issue, at least be able to counter the allied fuel superiority. OKW overall AT utility is the poorest or most undermined of all factions, the AT support weapon and Infantry AT unit being the worst. Not suitable enough as an AT unit.

It is not biased, it is a fact! Try Sturmpio out and you will say for certain, it is crap and so not worth it for its price also!

Raketenwerfer which is a sneaky assassin. It does simply play a supportive AT role. 270 manpower, there should actually be more but its crap. For 280 manpower for a USF AT gun is simply 2-3 times better than Rak alone.

Devs, reevaluate this and consider for the lacking proper AT utility OKW has to counter effectively enough for their problems. Then I am fine with bases being destroyed and no refund and no caches. Now it is simply unjustified because they are really undermined!

Fix their AT issue and maybe then consider removing King Tiger. Depends on what you guys think! To make it for fun instead. You can maybe decide any of unit of choice in base late game. For a Hetzer Flame or Ostwind or Brummbar.


I apologise for this being long but I have done this for the sake of clarity and for clear reasons! Why I write this is because I believe this is what needs adjusting. For those who take the time to read it and share their views. I really do appreciate your feedback and for your time!

I just think its weird with okw.
If you dont get a p4 before they get a medium, you lose the game.
Cause raketen with it short range just gets melted.

I just think its weird with okw.
If you dont get a p4 before they get a medium, you lose the game.
Cause raketen with it short range just gets melted.

I know, right!

Without a tank. OKW will suffer heavily because of lacking the proper AT utility they have.

They can not exactly counter enemy tanks without any proper AT gear.

Does not make sense to have both the difficulty in acquiring fuel while they still experience difficulty in countering vehicles.

AT (Anti-Tank) Rak and Sturmpio units needs to be looked over.

if u think AT is problem

use 1 more raketen and build mine

or

use puma

I apologise for this being long but I have done this for the sake of clarity and for clear reasons!

I am finding this works opposite to your goal. The more concise the post, the clearer the point usually is. Not to say I know much better, I have only started realizing this recently

But I dont understand your recommendation here. "Better AT" is too vague, and the only specific thing I see is the cheaper tech cost if you lose the building. To me you cant do that because you need the cost as part of the threat in order to balance the use of those buildings aggressively

The Rak could use buffs and nerfs and i think everybody agrees on that. Nerf/remove the camo, buff its AT performance/survivability more directly. Rather then relying on the cloak as a gimmick to make up for its shortcomings

i think accessibility of AT is the issue, not the quality.
id like to see some playing around with the trucks acting like ost battle phases and each truck offering new options in previous trucks to incentivize building them all even if you dont want the KT.

i made a thread about it a ways back where the JP4 is unlocked in the med truck when a 2nd trucks placed allowing med and mech to be strong but also allowing the okw player to build AT even if the schwere is lost.

Guys you still remember that OKW is about to get access to double schreck squads, right?

OKW AT is not problem，but tech tree need some change ……

I am finding this works opposite to your goal. The more concise the post, the clearer the point usually is. Not to say I know much better, I have only started realizing this recently

But I dont understand your recommendation here. "Better AT" is too vague, and the only specific thing I see is the cheaper tech cost if you lose the building. To me you cant do that because you need the cost as part of the threat in order to balance the use of those buildings aggressively

The Rak could use buffs and nerfs and i think everybody agrees on that. Nerf/remove the camo, buff its AT performance/survivability more directly. Rather then relying on the cloak as a gimmick to make up for its shortcomings

Currently, I see that OKW suffers in both losing bases (which does cost a lot of fuel) and do not have potent enough AT units Raketenwerfer (which range is limited causing difficulties to support properly) and Sturmpio Pzshrek (not potent enough, should deal 240 damage within 8 seconds as most other AT infantry units but does only half 120 damage. Makes it overall lackluster).


Check this out, my comment number 25 regarding what better AT resolution is for OKW specifically and Why!

Here is the link: https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245914/okw-all-raketenwerfer-43-anti-tank#latest

_____

Here is how I see this.

Either fix the bases costs and all the teching

or

Fix them to have proper AT gear

_____

Because now it is 2 huge problems and there should be at least a distinct disadvantage but now for OKW, it is simply too much. Having difficulties both regarding Fuel and AT.

Fuel and AT are related in this game. There should at least be a difficulty in one of those areas and not both because that just causes a huge unbalance.

If you can not counter one or the other, then there is a problem. It must be looked over and resolved in a properly fashion.

Currently for the way it is now, OKW survive only in terms of AT barely by using Tanks (as their only main chance of survival) in PanzerHQ, without it, they will gradually lose for sure as their manpower will drain from enemy having better gear and being outgunned/outmatched.

Puma is ok but in late game, I would not consider it as a reliable vehicle for AT support. Neither can I say that currently for Raketenwerfer but that is the only best option there is for OKW. Sturmpio, well you know how it is!
_____

I think if it were to fix both, it might give OKW a huge distinctive advantage which I do not want! I would rather see one fix then later decide whether another is necessary or not! A gradual development is best for this game to get better!

First: Which time frame are you talking about? OKW has a Panther for heavies and a JP4 for medium AT. Late game AT is not the issue. The only issue is that with the current LV meta OKW is forced to get a Puma, since Raketenwerfer is very mediocre and you always need two to be really threatening. This and the lackluster infrared-light is also why few people play the med-HQ. One Raketen will only allow to delay the enemy but not destroy the LV if the LV is played properly. I think the Raketenwerfer suffers most from rng wipes due to bad spacing (also on retreat, which is its most important gadget - take a shot or two and retreat to stay alive), but that discussion is in another thread. Puma is like a AEC - meant to counter LV and maybe take a peeking shot at a medium. After that, the most valuable asset becomes the stun shot.

Why should OKW be better in everything than the Allies? As SOV, you might have decent AT but bad team weapons (especially a lacking MG against an infantry-aggressive faction like OKW) and no fortifications. USF has okay-ish team weapons, bad fortifications compared to OKW and good AT. UKF is slightly OP, but is very immobile due to the lack of high DPS AT.
Only OKW has the ability to set up a complete forward base (reinforcing, healing, even auto-repairs and defense). The only faction that can do that is UKF, but only with the right commander choice and at way higher cost.
Don't want your trucks destroyed? Place them in the base sector like absolutely every other faction. OKW has the option of a forward base (and can also spawn units there), not the obligation.

Make JPIV great again by making it more accessible.

Wink wink make T4 more accessible wink wink

We could always make JP4 slightly cheaper if we address its... problematic scaling.

We could always make JP4 slightly cheaper if we address its... problematic scaling.

Like its vet 5 ability that allowed it to have a whopping 200 damage for one shot?

First: Which time frame are you talking about? OKW has a Panther for heavies and a JP4 for medium AT. Late game AT is not the issue. The only issue is that with the current LV meta OKW is forced to get a Puma, since Raketenwerfer is very mediocre and you always need two to be really threatening. This and the lackluster infrared-light is also why few people play the med-HQ. One Raketen will only allow to delay the enemy but not destroy the LV if the LV is played properly. I think the Raketenwerfer suffers most from rng wipes due to bad spacing (also on retreat, which is its most important gadget - take a shot or two and retreat to stay alive), but that discussion is in another thread. Puma is like a AEC - meant to counter LV and maybe take a peeking shot at a medium. After that, the most valuable asset becomes the stun shot.

Why should OKW be better in everything than the Allies? As SOV, you might have decent AT but bad team weapons (especially a lacking MG against an infantry-aggressive faction like OKW) and no fortifications. USF has okay-ish team weapons, bad fortifications compared to OKW and good AT. UKF is slightly OP, but is very immobile due to the lack of high DPS AT.
Only OKW has the ability to set up a complete forward base (reinforcing, healing, even auto-repairs and defense). The only faction that can do that is UKF, but only with the right commander choice and at way higher cost.
Don't want your trucks destroyed? Place them in the base sector like absolutely every other faction. OKW has the option of a forward base (and can also spawn units there), not the obligation.

I am talking about their options.

I never said OKW should be better in everything than the Allies!!!

Even then, OKW is not OP! Just putting words where they do not belong or never were does not help anybody. They are simply different in their own way but suffer the ability to counter their fuel issues. When I mean by that, it is either counter their Fuel or AT problem. NOT BOTH. Look to what I said on the last sentence. Does that still mean I want OKW to be OP. The answer is simply, NO!

If they have issues in gaining fuel, at least have the potency enough to counter properly the enemy who have tanks. Right, that makes sense does it not?

It does not make sense to have a fuel deficit on a top the inability to counter enemy vehicles at the same time properly right?

Either have a problem in Fuel or AT. Not both. That is unbalanced right since Fuel and AT is what keeps the balance in check, right?

Well as I said. OKW stands only a chance in surviving against Tanks is with Tanks mainly. Rak we all know is unreliable since it gets countered easily. It needs to be proificient and potent enough like all other AT guns.

Why suffer both in AT and Fuel! One only is justified because having problems in both does not make sense, does it not?

______

Allied factions have some good team weapons.


What sucks is simply and I will say this in order>

SU suffers MG only, Maxim as we all know. AT gun and mortar is great since they are potent enough. They have also the best survivability. So capturing an enemy team weapon counters their problem. Although it would be nicer just to acquire yourself the team weapon from base.

USF has great support weapons. AT gun and Pack Howizter I believe is the best or top in game because of the impact it has in game. MG is very good also but its arc is limited in comparison but has great suppression and damage. The fact that you cant use them all at the same time, that is the only key issue!

UKF has great survivable strong support weapons although AT support weapon is not as good as USF. The emplacements downside is just its manpower cost but its performance is great. Perfect for holding/maintaing ground. Dont have mobile mortar but have a decent MG.

All of their AT guns except USF (the ability to get penetration counters their problem) have less penetration but are overall proficient. Raketenwerfer simply is not!

______

I am not saying Tanks should be more accessible. I am saying. Accessibility to better, proificient AT equipment is what they need. Can have penetration like USF AT gun or like what allies have since it has been stated, it is worse. Remove camo, have same range as any other. It must be a proper AT support gun. Revamp.

How are you guys not see this right.(Those who suddenly change the story or jump into different conclusions!)

I stated clearly, "Better AT support units". Where did I even mention, get tanks earlier?

Never said, never had. Although I suggested before the possibility to get JagdpanzerIV if and even after last PanzerHQ is destroyed because of their current incompetent AT choices! Only dedicated AT unit choices! Even thedarkarmadillo (You do not I mind if I reference you right? https://www.coh2.org/topic/91739/to-justify-okw-no-caches-no-bases-refund/post/750863) mentioned this idea because of the very same reason. I (We) not trying to make anything OP. Rather we seek to balance out the problems which OKW especially other factions suffers.

Lack of proper AT, that needs to be fixed! That is all to it.

I think we need to wait for the dust to settle from the new patch before anything else. New commanders and changes always cause a new meta.

As someone said above, making the JP4 more readily available would be a solution to one of the OKWs few weaknesses. However, the JP4 can be very tanky so it may require adjusting if it is to come sooner.

Guys you still remember that OKW is about to get access to double schreck squads, right?

Ostheer. Not OKW.
PGren double shrek squads (Remember they get -20% discount, too)

I think we need to wait for the dust to settle from the new patch before anything else. New commanders and changes always cause a new meta.

As someone said above, making the JP4 more readily available would be a solution to one of the OKWs few weaknesses. However, the JP4 can be very tanky so it may require adjusting if it is to come sooner.

I agree with you, waiting for the patch before any changes are required.

I just discussed that this is something that should be stated and to make the Devs aware of this issue!

I do not expect immediate changes but the expectation of them to consider this fact! The hope that fixes will be made to OKW's AT problems!

Ostheer. Not OKW.
PGren double shrek squads (Remember they get -20% discount, too)

Go read patch notes on pfussiliers.

I am talking about their options.

I never said OKW should be better in everything than the Allies!!!

Even then, OKW is not OP! Just putting words where they do not belong or never were does not help anybody. They are simply different in their own way but suffer the ability to counter their fuel issues. When I mean by that, it is either counter their Fuel or AT problem. NOT BOTH. Look to what I said on the last sentence. Does that still mean I want OKW to be OP. The answer is simply, NO!

If they have issues in gaining fuel, at least have the potency enough to counter properly the enemy who have tanks. Right, that makes sense does it not?

It does not make sense to have a fuel deficit on a top the inability to counter enemy vehicles at the same time properly right?

Either have a problem in Fuel or AT. Not both. That is unbalanced right since Fuel and AT is what keeps the balance in check, right?

Well as I said. OKW stands only a chance in surviving against Tanks is with Tanks mainly. Rak we all know is unreliable since it gets countered easily. It needs to be proificient and potent enough like all other AT guns.

Why suffer both in AT and Fuel! One only is justified because having problems in both does not make sense, does it not?

______

Allied factions have some good team weapons.


What sucks is simply and I will say this in order>

SU suffers MG only, Maxim as we all know. AT gun and mortar is great since they are potent enough. They have also the best survivability. So capturing an enemy team weapon counters their problem. Although it would be nicer just to acquire yourself the team weapon from base.

USF has great support weapons. AT gun and Pack Howizter I believe is the best or top in game because of the impact it has in game. MG is very good also but its arc is limited in comparison but has great suppression and damage. The fact that you cant use them all at the same time, that is the only key issue!

UKF has great survivable strong support weapons although AT support weapon is not as good as USF. The emplacements downside is just its manpower cost but its performance is great. Perfect for holding/maintaing ground. Dont have mobile mortar but have a decent MG.

All of their AT guns except USF (the ability to get penetration counters their problem) have less penetration but are overall proficient. Raketenwerfer simply is not!

______

I am not saying Tanks should be more accessible. I am saying. Accessibility to better, proificient AT equipment is what they need. Can have penetration like USF AT gun or like what allies have since it has been stated, it is worse. Remove camo, have same range as any other. It must be a proper AT support gun. Revamp.

How are you guys not see this right.(Those who suddenly change the story or jump into different conclusions!)

I stated clearly, "Better AT support units". Where did I even mention, get tanks earlier?

Never said, never had. Although I suggested before the possibility to get JagdpanzerIV if and even after last PanzerHQ is destroyed because of their current incompetent AT choices! Only dedicated AT unit choices! Even thedarkarmadillo (You do not I mind if I reference you right? https://www.coh2.org/topic/91739/to-justify-okw-no-caches-no-bases-refund/post/750863) mentioned this idea because of the very same reason. I (We) not trying to make anything OP. Rather we seek to balance out the problems which OKW especially other factions suffers.

Lack of proper AT, that needs to be fixed! That is all to it.

Well than it mostly is a misunderstanding since you threw a lot of points in there that felt like a general ramble about OKW.
I do agree that the Raketen should get a buff. I know that I will be alone with this opinion, but I like the current design of it. Just make it 5 or 6 man and that should be fine. I like the cloaking of the aketen amd find it very useful for ambushes and scouting (and sometimes even capturing). It also helps tremendously against allied TDs since you can creep forward, take a shot or two and then retreat. This puts the TD out of operation, since the TDs are all glass cannons and will always take damage in a fight, so having less health makes is risky to use.
The main issue I have with it is it's randomness. You cloak and move forward to take the stealthy shot, the Raketenwerfer decloaks, you retreat and the rest is up to rng. Often it will run away just fine, maybe drop a modell. But due to the spacing, if the first counter shot of a medium randomly wipes two models - that's basically our Raketen gone. This is just pure luck, nobody can plan for this. So I think buffing the crew number should be alroght. Since the Raketenwerfer is meant to counter stuff up to mediums, and OKW has good late game AT options, it does not need pen buffs and similars.

Short note in USF AT gun: I think this is the most comparable to the Raketenwerfer. Cheap, small, a bit gimmicky.
Fuelwise, I think OKW ist mostly okay. How much more fuel does it take OKW to tech up to T4 compared to the other factions? OKW needs 2x15 (Trucks), 35/50 and 120, so about 185-200 in total. But they get something out of their bases while other factions don't.
USF needs 55 plus 120 = 175, but they do have sidetech that sometimes must be teched to delay fur further ~20 fuel.
Sov? Not quite sure. 15/25, plus 90 plus 85? Would make approx 200.
UKF has 35(?) Plus 115(?) Makes 150 plus often required sidetech

The new commander for OKW is good.

The Panzerfusiliers upgrade to 2 Pzshreks is good but I think it would suit better for Sturmpio instead. Since Panzerfuisiliers are doc and especially they have access to snares making them too good. I feel it be a proper suit and a fix if Sturmpio got access to 2 Pzshreks instead.

That would be a balance and a fix to Sturmpios AT current issue!

I think this is more preferable since Sturmpio AT upgrade is currently unbalanced and too weak.

I think you just simply trade the AT Pzshreks upgrade between the Sturmpio and Panzerfusiliers.

Since Pzfusiliers have snares, they should be limited to 1 Pzshrek whilst Sturmpio should get 2 Pzshreks without snares. Balance and fix, am I right?