Indirect Auto-Fire vs. Ost

One of the common topics brought up lately seems to be the issue of Ost's Gren performance vs other mainline infantry (and as a result, Ost's performance as a whole). This issue seems to be portrayed as grens lacking dps compared to WFA double-upgraded units, their high reinforce cost, low model count, or a number of other perceived issues many have suggested. Higher-skill players will respond that grens aren't supposed to go 'head-to-head' against other mainline infantry, and instead should be used to cover/screen for your support units (MG, Mortar, etc.). I believe this to be the case; however, there is a core problem that grens have when attempting to perform this roll, especially against the WFA (brit/US) factions: Indirect auto-fire.

In general, for grens to perform their best, they need to stay in a static position, similar to the MG42 they are covering for. However, this makes them incredibly vulnerable to indirect fire, be it from mortar HTs, M8A1s, Pack Howitzers, Mortar Pits, 81mm mortars, etc. Due to this, the current situation for Grens is that they cannot perform in their role as intended. Staying stationary is not possible due to indirect fire, but moving isn't a choice either, as the LMG42 can't be used on the move.

My complaint isn't that these indirect fire units are effective - they should be, since they're required to dislodge static OST/OKW players. My complaint is that all of these units are incredibly effective with very little user input. The mortar pit will auto-barrage a very large area with two mortars, the M8A1s can accurately auto-fire even when on the move, and all the other indirect fire units perform quite well when left alone.

A solution to this problem could be quite simple: lower the auto-fire performance of indirect fire units. Effectively, their performance would remain identical when the player is actually using them via either attack ground OR barrage, but it would result in a higher 'micro tax' to use them effectively in combat. While I'm no expert on unit stats, I think the easiest ways to implement this would be either to lower the rate of fire when auto-firing by 25-33%, or increase the scatter on auto-fire so that the auto-fired rounds are much less accurate (again 25-33%).

While I think the main issue is the performance of these units vs OST, I wouldn't be opposed to making these changes global, so to increase the required micro for all factions.

It's less the damage and more the unlikely wipes. A slower RoF wouldn't help much with that.

A hit cap like mines and the Ostwind might though. Double the damage but only let it hit two models at once. Then three man squads are safe from one hit indirect wipes.

this is not "vs ost" problem...

ALL INDIRECT FIRE ARE BROKEN AS HELL since a few patches ago. I never had too much trouble before the whole formation overhaul stuff since I was always a good micro player, but all the whiny kids that a-move all the time cried to much that relic made this awful system that rewards sitting behind 3 mortars and winning the game without doing anything.

I play team games a lot and generally the team that has more mortars/light guns is the one who wins.

The formation changes made squads harder to hit with indirect, not easier. They stand further apart.

Combine that with the nerfs to mortars in SBP, and indirect fire has never been weaker as a bleed tool.

The Scott and Pack Howie are strong at the moment because they avoided the nerf bat, not because they were made stronger in any way.

A while back I had suggested that indirect autofire do half damage but at slightly increased aoe and have barrage as is now. Each would have their place--autofire can help by softening the enemy up with little work, but is unlikley to change the game in a blink with little player input and barrage allows for more impactful Artillery at the cost of micro as well as the counter play of just moving...

It's less the damage and more the unlikely wipes. A slower RoF wouldn't help much with that.

A hit cap like mines and the Ostwind might though. Double the damage but only let it hit two models at once. Then three man squads are safe from one hit indirect wipes.

While I agree with the part of this, I don't think a model-cap would fix it. The problem isn't entirely the unlikely wipes; it's getting grens down to 50-60% HP (but with all 4 models still up) that leaves them incredibly vulnerable to infantry pushes, due to WFA's incredibly high infantry DPS. That said, the RNG wipes would be nice to see gone.

this is not "vs ost" problem...

ALL INDIRECT FIRE ARE BROKEN AS HELL since a few patches ago. I never had too much trouble before the whole formation overhaul stuff since I was always a good micro player, but all the whiny kids that a-move all the time cried to much that relic made this awful system that rewards sitting behind 3 mortars and winning the game without doing anything.

I play team games a lot and generally the team that has more mortars/light guns is the one who wins.

Indirect fire does affects all teams, but I think ost is hit most by it. All the other factions (possibly except brits) have mobile mainline infantry (double bars, STGs, PPSHs, etc.); Ost/Brits NEED to remain static to be effective. I think the problem affects ost the most, though, simply due to the smaller model counts.

While I agree with the part of this, I don't think a model-cap would fix it. The problem isn't entirely the unlikely wipes; it's getting grens down to 50-60% HP (but with all 4 models still up) that leaves them incredibly vulnerable to infantry pushes, due to WFA's incredibly high infantry DPS. That said, the RNG wipes would be nice to see gone.

Model capping means you can only hit two models at once.

It'd be important to only apply this to autofire, or the barrage won't do shit to Maxims.

Indirect fire does affects all teams, but I think ost is hit most by it. All the other factions (possibly except brits) have mobile mainline infantry (double bars, STGs, PPSHs, etc.); Ost/Brits NEED to remain static to be effective. I think the problem affects ost the most, though, simply due to the smaller model counts.

trust me, ost is the LEAST affected since they only have 4 man squads.

what happens is that a mortar hit dead center a squad and you lose 80~90% of the squad health on the first engagement and now you have a useless squad for the next 3-4 minutes until you get healing.

and being mobile means nothing since mortars have laser guided technology that hit squads on the move.

The older model was much better, sure you would get wiped once or twice, but it was very rare when you microed good, now there is nothing you can do since mortars are basically rifles nades that get fired for free.

While I agree with the part of this, I don't think a model-cap would fix it. The problem isn't entirely the unlikely wipes; it's getting grens down to 50-60% HP (but with all 4 models still up) that leaves them incredibly vulnerable to infantry pushes, due to WFA's incredibly high infantry DPS.

Grens are actually in a unique position to be able to fix that themselves with their vet 1 med kits. It's likley the very purpose of it. Reducing casting time (I mean brits can AOE heal their whole fucking army on the move for Christ's sake) would go a long way for making it more attractive I think.

The formation changes made squads harder to hit with indirect, not easier. They stand further apart.

Combine that with the nerfs to mortars in SBP, and indirect fire has never been weaker as a bleed tool.

The Scott and Pack Howie are strong at the moment because they avoided the nerf bat, not because they were made stronger in any way.

Not really.
Hoizter had its number of shell increased in barrage and it price reduced. And it also become more accessible with changes to tech and being airdropped.

It is currently one of the strongest indirect fire weapons.

It's less the damage and more the unlikely wipes. A slower RoF wouldn't help much with that.

A hit cap like mines and the Ostwind might though. Double the damage but only let it hit two models at once. Then three man squads are safe from one hit indirect wipes.

I agree

trust me, ost is the LEAST affected since they only have 4 man squads.

what happens is that a mortar hit dead center a squad and you lose 80~90% of the squad health on the first engagement and now you have a useless squad for the next 3-4 minutes until you get healing.

and being mobile means nothing since mortars have laser guided technology that hit squads on the move.

The older model was much better, sure you would get wiped once or twice, but it was very rare when you microed good, now there is nothing you can do since mortars are basically rifles nades that get fired for free.

???

So, since grens are most likely to have the whole squad killed by mortars, they are LEAST affected? What the fuck are you smoking man!

Not a fan of indirect fire now, it is too deadly, especially for Allies which can turtle in with the buffed TD. Too much counter Wehr faction design. Hell, the ATG can target bunker like nothing. So the Wehr defensive design is stressed broken imo.

Pak howie and Scott are over-over performing. There is no direct counter for Wehr. I mean at least OKW can try a Stuka against Pak.

These 2 indirect have crazy low scatter accuracy, does what 50% damage on 1 hit, and can shoot out of counter range, and their pop cap are low enough, you can safely go for 1 or 2 and still amass a good army. Just defend it with 1 ATG and 50cal, simply because Grens are terrible closing in, and Scott HP / Smoke can scoot out against P4.

The problem is Grens take forever to do any damage in a fight, and so they have to spend more time standing still to shoot. It also means they can't actually protect crew weapons since they can be ignored long enough to wipe the crew and then retreat.

What is this thread about? Mortars have been nerfed recently yet people claim that they are NOW suddenly better than before and break the game?

Camping with lots of mortars was a strat that was used more often a few months ago before the nerfs hit mortars hard. Nowadays no one (good) goes for this anymore.

The only indirect fire units that remain OP are the USF Pak Howi and Scott. All the other units are either balanced or bad.

What is this thread about? Mortars have been nerfed recently yet people claim that they are NOW suddenly better than before and break the game?

Camping with lots of mortars was a strat that was used more often a few months ago before the nerfs hit mortars hard. Nowadays no one (good) goes for this anymore.

The only indirect fire units that remain OP are the USF Pak Howi and Scott. All the other units are either balanced or bad.

It's basically about how most indirect fire units still perform incredibly well when auto-firing - i.e. with no player input. And that those auto-fire units are essentially countering OST's core design (stationary damage) with little actual 'skill' involved in their use.

My suggestion in the original post was to lower their auto-fire potential via either ROF or scatter changes (only when auto-firing), but others have brought up other changes which could work.

They perform incredibly well when auto-firing in current patch? That´s news to me.

Against OST units which need to stay stationary to do any damage (Grens, MG42); yes, exceedingly, especially in 2v2+. It's quite common to see 2 MHTs, 2 scotts, or 2 Pak howitzers in 2v2s in top 200 play against ost, simply because it makes Grens incredibly challenging to use at almost zero 'micro cost'.

Against OST units which need to stay stationary to do any damage (Grens, MG42); yes, exceedingly, especially in 2v2+. It's quite common to see 2 MHTs, 2 scotts, or 2 Pak howitzers in 2v2s in top 200 play against ost, simply because it makes Grens incredibly challenging to use at almost zero 'micro cost'.

I just said that pak howi and scotts are OP. They are used a lot for a reason now what about Soviet 80 and 120mm mortars? What about leig, USF mortar, Ost mortar, UKF mortars? Instead of demanding nerfs for all indirect fire units it would make 10x more sense to just adjust Pak Howi and Scott instead.

I just said that pak howi and scotts are OP. They are used a lot for a reason now what about Soviet 80 and 120mm mortars? What about leig, USF mortar, Ost mortar, UKF mortars? Instead of demanding nerfs for all indirect fire units it would make 10x more sense to just adjust Pak Howi and Scott instead.

Sorry, somehow missed the comment regarding the scott/pak.

Anyway, as for the other indirect fire units - yes, they all need addressing in order to keep things 'fair' between the factions. My original post suggests this, but also points out that because of OST's 4-man, high cost squads, they are currently the most affected by this issue.