Mirror Match

Nobody has actually supplied us with any reliable evidence that CoH's competitive life span has been negatively affected by a lack of mirror matches.

As far as I can tell, the game has been hugely popular for years.

Of course, you may trumpet the fact that CoH's competitive scene pales in comparison to that of SC2's, but you would be remiss to argue that this is due in any way to mirror matches, unless you've got proof.

Uh, what sort of reliable evidence are you looking for? When 12azor, Sepha, and SemInt say that mirror matches are a good idea for competitive purposes, what more evidence do you need? Surely you can't ask us to go back in time, add mirror matches to CoH, and show you how much more popular its competitive scene is, because that's physically impossible. So really, what kind of evidence could we provide aside from good arguments and testimonials from top players?

Well if mirror matches are included, I hope that top players will still try to play well with both factions. I sure will!

Well, yeah, sure.

If that's your answer to what is ultimately the crux of the argument, then there's really nothing further to discuss. Maybe we'll get the Tyranids in COH2 for the first expansion!

I don't know who made you the captain of the CoH Spirit Police...

Sunday Night Fights.

The good news is, that while I can't elaborate, I know that Relic will be doing the right thing here.

Sunday Night Fights.

he has a good point there lol.

You AND I were casting before SNF even existed, Yoink, you know that, so SNF is in no position to make someone the Spirit Police (Not to mention I think I was on SNF before you were, so if you're the Spirit Police I'm the Spirit Police CHIEF...)

Yes, CoH 2 could add Tyranids for all I care. That wouldn't make the game less fun. That IS my response to your point, in a nutshell, although I actually gave extensive criticism which you pretty much ignored for whatever reason.

In any case, given that it looks like mirror matches are already in the game, this is one of the few times in the last few weeks/months that I can say it looks like Relic will be doing the right thing.

Uh, what sort of reliable evidence are you looking for? When 12azor, Sepha, and SemInt say that mirror matches are a good idea for competitive purposes, what more evidence do you need? Surely you can't ask us to go back in time, add mirror matches to CoH, and show you how much more popular its competitive scene is, because that's physically impossible. So really, what kind of evidence could we provide aside from good arguments and testimonials from top players?

And I don't necessarily believe them either. Maybe that's brave, or just stupid, I don't know, but my feeling is they have no idea either what catalyzes a competitive community or not. They do know how to play CoH though...

The fact that it can't really be illustrated is the whole point; nobody has any reason to think that mirror matches would have any effect on e-sports. I suspect that the population of players who would cite a lack of mirror matches as the reason they don't play CoH competitively is nonexistent or vanishingly small. Therefore, adding mirrors wouldn't have any effect.

Now, if you could find a whole bunch of people who didn't play CoH because of mirrors, or left CoH because of no mirrors, I'd be all ears.

Apart from some "would be interesting" and "its about the maps to make it work" theres no real arguments for mirrors as far as i can tell.

Hypothetical situation: mirrors are in, there are perfectly symmetrical maps in the pool.

What if you dont get one of those maps? What if you get a symmetrical map, but Not a mirrors matchup? What if only one tech path is viable for a certain mirror? If you dont do it,you lose. If you do it and slip up once, you lose. If RNG hates you, you lose. What if Hey decide to patch a few things to balance mirrors? it fucks up the other matchups.

Just cause you can build the same units does not make a matchup balanced.

Apart from some "would be interesting" and "its about the maps to make it work" theres no real arguments for mirrors as far as i can tell.

Hypothetical situation: mirrors are in, there are perfectly symmetrical maps in the pool.

What if you dont get one of those maps? What if you get a symmetrical map, but Not a mirrors matchup? What if only one tech path is viable for a certain mirror? If you dont do it,you lose. If you do it and slip up once, you lose. If RNG hates you, you lose. What if Hey decide to patch a few things to balance mirrors? it fucks up the other matchups.

Just cause you can build the same units does not make a matchup balanced.

Most of those examples you used go both ways. So does it matter?

There are at least two big reasons for mirror matches aside from "would be interesting" and "its about the maps."

The first reason is making best of 3/5/whatever tournaments much easier to run: in CoH when you play an odd number of games, one person only gets to play their preferred team once in the best of 3 or twice in the best of 5. You can do things like "whoever has the most VPs total going into the third game chooses their side" or something like that but that's an annoying consideration for players to deal with and especially when one side is better for the map they're playing in the last round or better because of Relic's latest patch, it sucks to be stuck with the side you don't want. Mirror matches allow competitive players in tournaments to play the side they want to play in each map, or even just in the final odd matchup (you could still have the first matches be Axis vs. Allies if you really wanted).

The second reason mirror matches are important for competitive play is that they let people get really good, like REALLY good, at the game, in less time. This opens up the competitive scene and lets a lot more players in - it lets in people who don't have enough time to become master class with both teams but who do have enough time to pick one team and learn it well. Let me quote Sepha from the second page:

While I can say the same for a lot of the competitive players I know who left on day1 of CoH being released because their were no mirror matchups, I can't say that the amount of people in that group is larger than people who don't want mirror matchups.

There's a big group of competitive players who will never touch CoH 2, never play in tournaments, never keep the game alive for months and years after release, unless there are mirror matchups.

Now if your favorite part of Company of Heroes is pretending like you're watching World War 2 combat footage you won't care, but if you want exciting matches for years to come, and if you want a healthy, thriving competitive community that makes tournaments exciting and closely matched, then you should want mirror matches.

Most of those examples you used go both ways. So does it matter?

yes it does, since non-mirror matchups will be in 100%, since maps will not be symmetrical for the sake of non-mirror balance anyway.

The first reason is making best of 3/5/whatever tournaments much easier to run: in CoH when you play an odd number of games, one person only gets to play their preferred team once in the best of 3 or twice in the best of 5. You can do things like "whoever has the most VPs total going into the third game chooses their side" or something like that but that's an annoying consideration for players to deal with and especially when one side is better for the map they're playing in the last round or better because of Relic's latest patch, it sucks to be stuck with the side you don't want. Mirror matches allow competitive players in tournaments to play the side they want to play in each map, or even just in the final odd matchup (you could still have the first matches be Axis vs. Allies if you really wanted).

First of all, i don't think VP leader faction choice is as bad as you think it is (at least thats what i deduct from you bashing it all the time :-P). It's not optimal, but it's the best way imho. Also: you are saying you could even keep the first two games axis vs allies... so why include mirror matchups in the first place then? i've said numerous times: np to have mirrors in basic matches (that includes tourneys), i just would not want them in automatch. in tourneys you can choose pretty much everything, so idc... if someone chooses to have his tournament played only on maps like lyon (2p), st mere dumont, best and carpiquet.... who am i to say he's not allowed to do so?

edit: also, and i mentioned that before, depending on the map, it might not be enough to have mirrors in, since then the two players might argue over starting positions...

The second reason mirror matches are important for competitive play is that they let people get really good, like REALLY good, at the game, in less time. This opens up the competitive scene and lets a lot more players in - it lets in people who don't have enough time to become master class with both teams but who do have enough time to pick one team and learn it well.

you are probably referring to ppl becoming better faster since they only have to play one faction. i disagree with that statement already, since they are not becoming "better" faster, you are just toning down your requirements for considering a player "good".
apart from that, how is it any different from CoH? imagine someone not having enough time to play both Wehr and US to level 20, so he focused on Wehrmacht... he gets to level 20 and is content sitting there. Do you really think if he starts playing US he starts from scratch learning the faction? with all the knowledge he has from being the best with wehr, he pretty much knows all there is to know about US, and he only has to practise mechanics/hotkeys to become US level 20 as well.

Atleast mirrormatches are true balance

It's really sad that the vast majority of the people speaking out against mirror matches don't even play the game competitively, and are actively trying to kill CoH 2's potential competitive scene on its feet because "they have a vague feeling" mirrors will be bad for the game despite all evidence to the contrary. Even worse is that a lot of casters fall into this category, and they'll only be slashing their viewing figures and potential to be casting on some real competitive gaming in the future.

The good news is, that while I can't elaborate, I know that Relic will be doing the right thing here.

The right thing would be to listen to the experts and ignore everybody else. That's how we got 2.602.

the vast majority of the people speaking out against mirror matches don't even play the game competitively

i thought you said you were PRO mirror matchups? MVGame

i thought you said you were PRO mirror matchups? MVGame

I'm not good enough at CoH to play at the top level, but my views on competition stem from fighting games, where I do play at a high level.

i was just joking... i have no idea who you are or how good you are, for all i know you could be top 50 with all factions...

also:

The right thing would be to listen to the experts and ignore everybody else. That's how we got 2.602.

...and everybody LOVES the sniper mechanics of 2.602, don't they? :-D

no matter who you ask, you can always go wrong...

but still i think it's not a very good idea to introduce something that is going to make the game harder to balance, just to appease to a group of players that only wants to play 1 faction.

i was just joking... i have no idea who you are or how good you are, for all i know you could be ...and everybody LOVES the sniper mechanics of 2.602, don't they? :-D

no matter who you ask, you can always go wrong...

Nothing about snipers was changed from 2.601. The way the accuracy modifiers play their role also got in the way of easily adjusting things. Regardless, just because the most knowledgeable people get it wrong doesn't mean their opinions are worth as much as anyone's. RTS multiplayer is obviously a pretty complex environment and you just don't get it right in one go.
Also: the MG re-setup time and the reduced cost of Wehr Tier 1 units came completely out of blue if I'm not mistaken.

For competitive objectives, you can listen to the good players, but those objectives don't have to be the developer's objectives. The idea is to sell as many copies as possible: if "increased competivity" through mirrors (still rather speculative, I know) among things leads to CoH 2 being high profile, then that works out. That's assuming there's a proper "e-sporty" thing going, which isn't guaranteed in any way.
Alternatively, if it doesn't go e-sporty, I don't know if people are turned off by the inclusion of mirror matches up to the point where they don't buy the game. I don't know how people would decide without buying the game... maybe the reduced word-of-mouth marketing that would have otherwise gone through people such as yourself seriously damages sales.

...and everybody LOVES the sniper mechanics of 2.602, don't they? :-D

no matter who you ask, you can always go wrong...

but still i think it's not a very good idea to introduce something that is going to make the game harder to balance, just to appease to a group of players that only wants to play 1 faction.

2.602 is the closest CoH has been to any remote semblance of balance since OF was introduced. And of course you can go wrong, but not everybody's opinions on the matter are equal and certainly shouldn't be considered so (which by the sounds of it, they are, which is a shame.)

Mirror matches aren't for people who only want to play 1 faction - I really don't know how you're missing the point of them, even now - they're for competitive players who want to see as much potential imbalance taken out of the game as possible.

The world's most famous strategy game does not have mirror matches... Chess!

You might think that's ludicrous, but the mere fact that one player moves first has a dramatic effect. Here are just a few examples:
-Black often takes a more passive, defensive posture, attempting to equalize while white capitalizes on her first move advantage; white usually takes the more aggressive, active posture. Of course, not always, the roles can be reversed.
-Black really decides the nature of the game by reacting to White's opening. Black can choose a more cloistered, defensive game with a French or Caro-Kann defense, or take a more aggressive posture with the Queen's Gambit. White really chooses between opening queen's pawn, king's pawn, or the occasional English opening, but it's blacks reaction which decides how the game feels.

A chess player masters both sides of the game, a feat which is significantly greater than mastering both sides in CoH, which is much less complex than chess*. Demanding that a player only master one side is intellectual cowardice.

This all being said, I'm coming across as a belligerent foe of mirror matches, which is really not true, I don't really care if they are added or not.

*CoH is a game about split second decision making and tactics; strategy of course plays a role but this role is much more myopic than the role strategy plays in chess. I'm not claiming chess is harder than CoH; each game capitalizes upon a different skill set.

Nothing about snipers was changed from 2.601. The way the accuracy modifiers play their role also got in the way of easily adjusting things. Regardless, just because the most knowledgeable people get it wrong doesn't mean their opinions are worth as much as anyone's. RTS multiplayer is obviously a pretty complex environment and you just don't get it right in one go.
Also: the MG re-setup time and the reduced cost of Wehr Tier 1 units came completely out of blue if I'm not mistaken.

For competitive objectives, you can listen to the good players, but those objectives don't have to be the developer's objectives. The idea is to sell as many copies as possible: if "increased competivity" through mirrors (still rather speculative, I know) among things leads to CoH 2 being high profile, then that works out. That's assuming there's a proper "e-sporty" thing going, which isn't guaranteed in any way.
Alternatively, if it doesn't go e-sporty, I don't know if people are turned off by the inclusion of mirror matches up to the point where they don't buy the game. I don't know how people would decide without buying the game... maybe the reduced word-of-mouth marketing that would have otherwise gone through people such as yourself seriously damages sales.

i think some stuff concerning the sniper was changed, but what i wanted to say is, that the sniper mechanics COULD have been changed, but weren't.

concerning CoH2, i don't think that Relic (or just quinn duffy) has a lot of interest in coh2 becoming very e-sporty, at least from all the comments and interviews that i've seen. and i have pre-ordered the game and will not change my mind just because of mirrors, and i do not intend to bad-mouth coh2 either :-P

Mirror matches aren't for people who only want to play 1 faction - I really don't know how you're missing the point of them, even now - they're for competitive players who want to see as much potential imbalance taken out of the game as possible.

You repeatedly say you want to "see as much potential imbalance taken out of the game".
I believe that balancing maps, units, commander abilities etc. for 3 matchups is a lot harder and much more of a lengthy process than it would be for 1 matchup.
It's what i've been saying all the time, mirror matchups don't alleviate balance problems, much to the contrary they introduce problems that didn't exist before.

You repeatedly say you want to "see as much potential imbalance taken out of the game".
I believe that balancing maps, units, commander abilities etc. for 3 matchups is a lot harder and much more of a lengthy process than it would be for 1 matchup.

Nobody said it was easy to balance an RTS. Literally nobody is saying anything to the contrary.

It's what i've been saying all the time, mirror matchups don't alleviate balance problems, much to the contrary they introduce problems that didn't exist before.

But they irrefutably do alleviate balance problems - especially when it comes to tournaments. Forcing people to play a faction on a map that is horrible for that faction is awful for competitive play and is quite possibly among the main reasons that CoH never became more than a speck of dust in e-sports.