Mirror Match

why no mirror matchups? simple: balance... try balancing all the factions not only against each other, but also against themselves.
also: mirror matchups like in SC:BW and SC2 are usually the most boring/annoying matchups possible.

but if mirror matchups are standard for coh2, that will certainly not be a reason for me not to get it. being a unbalanced piece of animal excrement might sway me though ;-)


oh, and btw: i love the ability to have mirror matchups for skirmishes, and would have loved that for vCoH too... just to mess around with it.

Mirror match balance is mathematically a non-issue since both armies are the same. Now if you're talking about unit diversity, then yeah maybe but that's going to be an issue for the first couple of years anyway and to put it bluntly, with a game like CoH where you use a diverse range of units because of the different kind of mechanics they bring to the battlefield, it's not that hard to diversify mirror matches at all.

The real issue is sales, the amount of people who would/wouldn't buy the game for the realism aspect may outweigh the amount of people who value mirror matches for competition.

problem is: just think of the brit/wehr matchup in vCoH... you might get the same situation in mirror matchups where theres 1 strat that both players opt for, since if you don't use that strat, you are almost certain to lose... now if you want to change something about that, you will invariably influence the non-mirror matchups.

also: maps might be favoring certain starting position way more heavily in mirror matchups.

about the sales.... i don't think mirror matchups will influence sales a whole lot in either direction. at least not as much as other parts/aspects of the game might.

hhhhhnnnnnngggg Inverse.

How can it be possibly a bad thing to have mirror matches as long as it is only custom matches.

The competitive community will determine if it is viable and entertaining enough to actually use in competitions.

Nose cutter

he said it would be interesting and that it was impossible to say anything definitive about mirror matchups in CoH2 without discussing gameplay (which CoH2 Alpha ppl are not allowed to, and others haven't experienced yet).

In every rts game that I have played and that had mirrors, the mirror matches were the worst. Eventhough they are in theory fun and balanced, there's generally only a few ideal aims during a game. So, because the match is mirrored both player's aims are the same, and the player who's faster/better at reaching those aims wins. It leads to very bland games.

However, in CoH 2 we have CoH factions. On top of that in CoH 2 we also have the commander archetypes and bulletins too. So, in actuality there's a possibility for much variance even between two sets of the same faction. For the first time ever I'm actually thinking that mirror matches might not be that bad, tbh.

Sepha covered basically all my points but I'll repeat what I said in the official forums as counters to the three main points against mirror matches.

#1 Historically accuracy - COH isn't historically accurate in a huge number of ways already. Ranges, damages, unit availability and viability, army compositions, lethality. Mirror matches aren't historically accurate but they're better for the game, just as all the other things mentioned.

#2 Problems with balance - This is a non-point. If Relic and only Relic decides its too much work to balance it then the whole debate is moot anyway because they'll remove it. You can't theorise on balance potential in a game in Alpha.

#3 WAAAAAAAAHAHAAHA IT ISN'T COH, ONLY HAVE IT IN BASIC - The only people who really want it are competitive players or those who understand competitive play. Therefore it has to be enabled in mirror matches. People who are really that fussed can just play basic themselves. (Most of these people are Scheldt players I think)


Also let me just extend on one thing Sepha said; does anyone really think the VP leader choosing faction in a BO3/BO5/BO7 is the best thing for tournaments? This was a stop-gap measure by the community, not by Relic, due to the lack of mirrors and the necessity to have at least BO3 series in any tournament. You think thats good? Logical? Something that should be carried over into COH2?

I think mirror matches are a good thing. They might tend to be more boring depending on how well factions are balanced against themselves, but that's the only real issue - I don't care about historical accuracy (guess what: the only thing historically accurate about CoH is that it's based on an actual war and uses equipment that for the most part existed, at least in small numbers).

Mirror matches are typically the most boring to watch in Starcraft but they're still enjoyable, and like 12azor says, being able to balance a tournament in a better way than giving someone the choice of faction on a BO3 is a good thing.

Personally, I don't mind to have mirror games in COH2, even in automatch. And even if I rarely liked to play them or watch them in all the RTSs that I played.

But with COH1 behind, it is hard for Relic to introduce them for COH2, as we see.

Relic should just allow mirrors in private games, and in automatch with a checkbox : "Do you accept to play mirror games ?", and it should be fine.
People not wanting mirrors will still buy COH2 if it's developped that way.

I actually have to change my mind a bit. Right now, I would say it is worth a try, however, one can really only say if mirror matches are comparable to mixed matches in terms of entertainment and balance once the game develope a meta game.

So, I guess I'll have to try it out first, before I can really make my decision.

I don't really see how a mirror match can be imbalanced except by a assymetric map. Don't see how anyone can claim a mirror match is imbalanced...

+1 to CoH is already an unrealistic game and has been great because it made concessions to realism so that the gameplay could be more fun cough* MOW cough* Realism is not a valid argument against mirror matches tbh. Any argument should be gameplay or entertainment value. I'm sure there are alot of people out there who would enjoy watching a mirror match.

Also the factions from what I heard are going to be more suited for mirror matches than CoH 1. We aren't going to have factions that are so intrinsically different and more effective at certain points in the game like US and wehr. So mirror matches might be more like playing against the opposing faction gameplay wise than the original, though I'm speculating on this as I'm not in the alpha.

Mirror matches would be fine for basic matches but I don't want it in automatch.

The CoH games may not be historically accurate but where's the fun in having to use 5 Shermans to fight a Tiger? Gameplay has to come first obviously so some concessions have to be made.

If SNF starts broadcasting mirror matches I will tune out. I don't want to watch Volks vs. Volks and Tigers fight KTs and such nonsense. It just won't feel right. If you don't care about history there are other games out there.

Part of what makes CoH awesome is that you can relate to the setting and the units.

I just don't want to see games becoming consistently mirror matches in competition. When I watch SC2 games I am constantly watching TvT. Becomes so boring after awhile.

Mirror matches will make tournaments so boring. For example, 1 faction is much more powerful than the other, we see an entire tournament of Russian vs Russia. We'll start seeing players who are "Russian" or "Ost" only players just like StarCraft. IMO, players having to excel in both Allied and Axis factions brings a higher level of overall play.

I can see both sides tbh, but I fear the worst.

This mirror matching is like Barcelona vs Barcelona in Fifa games which noobs do all the time. COH has ofc historical value in it and all atmosphere and feel based upon it. Ost vs Ost will make COH2 just a game like others not a classic and state of art like COH1.

players having to excel in both Allied and Axis factions brings a higher level of overall play.

That's a very good point. A truly great player should be equally adept at all factions.

A few people in this thread has stated that mirror matches will make the game more competitive and better as an e-sport. As I'm not very familiar with games like SC2 that allows this, I wonder, why would mirror matches make it more competitive?

No mirror matches was one thing I've always liked with the original. It was like a cool feature that made the game different from other RTSes.

Because when two players are playing on a specular map with the same faction and in the same conditions you could ideally realize who is the best between them

#1 Historically accuracy - COH isn't historically accurate in a huge number of ways already. Ranges, damages, unit availability and viability, army compositions, lethality. Mirror matches aren't historically accurate but they're better for the game, just as all the other things mentioned.

This is a straw-man argument IMO, I haven't seen anyone seriously argue for realism (or accuracy as you call it here) without being told to shut up by pretty much everyone. Then again, I don't frequent the official forums

Authenticity =/= Realism. I truly love that the game "makes sense" with suppression, cover and armored vehicles that will ping shots and not take damage. I despise abilities like AWM and Crew Repair. This is not because it makes the game easier to play or understand, it is a immersion-quality like realistic gfx - except, gfx loose their importance with time; with authenticity, it is the other way around imo.

I just don't want the game to feel downright silly. Then again, I understand some people don't care, they play for the competition alone. It's a basic disagreement I think.