KV1 and Churchill can take too much damage

Title says it all.

This is becoming a problem especially in 2vs2s. StuGs bounce and can't reliably fight them off, mediums fail and Panthers often can't be afforded in time. Also those struggle since the high HP pool can easily take that.

This in coimbination with Bren blobs and 60 range td meta means Germans are not sufficiently equipped in the lategame.

I think KV-1 should be buffed to Churchill level but a price increase to match, it's slow and only really good vs Panzer 4 or puma.

It doesn't feel good enough against infantry or Pak in an assault

I feel they should be high health or high armor, but having both or a medium of both makes them a pain to deal with. StuG's and Panzer IV's are cheap and numerous but unreliable at penetrating the armor, while the Panther and Tiger can reliable smash their armor but the low rate of fire make the high health pool a pain. These aren't really a problem in 1v1 because games usually don't stretch out that long, and if it does the Brit will want Comet Tanks, but 2v2 gets hairy and up from that is just a clusterfuck, and they can be harsh to deal with.

Thinking about it though, both are problematic to think about, high health is a Veterancy feeder, but high armor is an RNG machine. Maybe a hackey solution is low health and armor with a crazy high damage reduction vs everything. It takes 8 shots to kill a 1280PH Churchill (number may be wrong, it's been a long time since i saw the files), but reducing it to 640 and reducing all damage intake by 50% would take the same number of hits to kill, but it would no longer feeds free Veterancy at a high rate, and the vehicle is no longer going to spend 80% of it's life in the repair bay.

Agreed with the post

I think the KV-1 is probably fine for it's price point currently. It's more of a problem of the Panther being extremely expensive to tech for if you don't decide to skip building Tier 3 and the Stug being a mediocre tank destroyer. I would like to see tech costs go down slightly for Ostheer and hopefully the Stug buffs help it out a bit, it may still need a little more but we will have to wait for the patch to see how it performs.

I believe vet is gained as a percentage of the vehicle's health you deal in damage, so high health doesnt really lead to vet feeding (so instead of getting 25% of the vehicles vet value per shot on say a medium, you get ~11% of the churchills vet value per shot). This is all if I remember correctly. Also, the vanilla churchill* has 1400 hp, so 9 shots to kill.

I really don't mind the big health pool on the Churchill, as it can be wore down with good and layered defenses eventually. In team games the Elefant and Jagdtiger make them mostly redundant, and you should aim to get one of those almost always anyway. Otherwise there's HEAT shells for OKW Jagdpanzer IVs. Pak 43s on some maps work really well too.


But I really wonder why they ever thought it was a great idea to give grenades to the one tank that can casually drive up to ATGs and throw one at them...

I really don't mind the big health pool on the Churchill, as it can be wore down with good and layered defenses eventually. In team games the Elefant and Jagdtiger make them mostly redundant, and you should aim to get one of those almost always anyway. Otherwise there's HEAT shells for OKW Jagdpanzer IVs. Pak 43s on some maps work really well too.


But I really wonder why they ever thought it was a great idea to give grenades to the one tank that can casually drive up to ATGs and throw one at them...

HEAT really wrecks any sort of heavy. I love it.

One mine hit and it takes 3-4 working days for either of those tanks to limp back to their own lines.

Also you don't have to worry about your enemy making any crazy dives into your lines at their standard speed either.

So while the Churchill (KV-1 is a useless meme imo) is a solid lump or HP and armour it is also utterly predictable.

i mean its almost all kv 1 can do.

And, for the record, anybody worried about grenades on their AT gun should just buy a pair of them.

Closing in to grenade an AT gun under fire from two of them is a HP drain to begin with, by the time they throw the grenade they are close enough to eat a Faust, and trying to back out with engine damage under fire from a PaK is usually a dead Churchill.

Yeah lets nerf the never used KV1. Such a fantastic idea.

At what ranks do you even see KV1 regularly used? 2000+ 4v4? I am really curious.

And, for the record, anybody worried about grenades on their AT gun should just buy a pair of them.

That's not true at all. A pair of (layered) Pak 40s (full health, which they usually aren't) barely have enough DPS against the Churchill's armor and HP to take it down to 50-75% HP on its charge before it kills the first one with its rather good AOE damage and grenades the second one. And I've been generous to the Paks in these tests by giving them 60 range vision. Not to mention Rakettens which are even worse. Only two vet 3 Paks stand a chance to take it below 50% HP before it kills them both.

And even if it gets hurt or snared, there's the engine smoke that turns it invisible on retreating making it super hard to finish it off with attack ground.

Again I'm completely fine with the Churchill being able to tank a dozen shots with its armor and HP pool because that's its role, but the "self defense" grenade that casually allows it to drive up to ATGs and wipe them almost instantly should be removed imo.

That's not true at all. A pair of (layered) Pak 40s (full health, which they usually aren't) barely have enough DPS against the Churchill's armor and HP to take it down to 50-75% HP on its charge before it kills the first one with its rather good AOE damage and grenades the second one.

Wouldn't a Churchill charging two Paks get snared though?

Wouldn't a Churchill charging two Paks get snared though?

Sander's issue is between the chair and keyboard, its nothing to do with the design of the Churchill.



More serioualy - really. A moving church can, apparently, move through the full length of a PaK range, wipe one purely with moving shots, advance on another, eat no snares and then grenade wipe the second?

BS. Maybe one every tousand games the perfect tank shell rng will come through, that's hardly a balance worry.

More serioualy - really. A moving church can, apparently, move through the full length of a PaK range, wipe one purely with moving shots, advance on another, eat no snares and then grenade wipe the second?

BS. Maybe one every tousand games the perfect tank shell rng will come through, that's hardly a balance worry.

If you leave out the snares, yes, it can. Just tested it myself.

In reality the opponent would react to a Churchill charging their anti-tank guns, but it definitely can frontally charge and kill two AFK Pak guns.

That's not true at all. A pair of (layered) Pak 40s (full health, which they usually aren't) barely have enough DPS against the Churchill's armor and HP to take it down to 50-75% HP on its charge before it kills the first one with its rather good AOE damage and grenades the second one. And I've been generous to the Paks in these tests by giving them 60 range vision. Not to mention Rakettens which are even worse. Only two vet 3 Paks stand a chance to take it below 50% HP before it kills them both.

I can't imagine a singular realistic, non vacuum flat map test scenario where a lone churchill would ever face completely unsupported PaKs.

If we were going to balance unit by void tests....
Well.... That's how units get completely gutted and neutered(Stuart anyone?).

I can't imagine a singular realistic, non vacuum flat map test scenario where a lone churchill would ever face completely unsupported PaKs.

If we were going to balance unit by void tests....
Well.... That's how units get completely gutted and neutered(Stuart anyone?).

Right, and in a non-vacuum environment there's going to be a Firefly or 6-Pounders backing up that Churchill to force off any tanks supporting those Paks, and there's going to be Bren Infantry Sections to force off the snaring Grenadiers. And once again we're at the point where the Churchill can then just drive up to two of its supposed hardcounters and wipe them with ease. Even the King Tiger would struggle with that. The grenade ability on a tank with these charactaristics is stupid.

Right, and in a non-vacuum environment there's going to be a Firefly or 6-Pounders backing up that Churchill to force off any tanks supporting those Paks, and there's going to be Bren Infantry Sections to force off the snaring Grenadiers. And once again we're at the point where the Churchill can then just drive up to two of its supposed hardcounters and wipe them with ease. Even the King Tiger would struggle with that. The grenade ability on a tank with these charactaristics is stupid.

Nice theorycrafting. Let me join:

A Churchill drives up to 2 Pak40s cant decrew either with his main-gun and eats a total of 6 shots before getting both down with a grenade. Then a Grenadier fausts it and a Panther finishes it off with ease while the Churchill can´t penetrate it. Infantry sections are pinned from MG42 and the UKF AT-guns get forced to retreat by the Grenadiers. Therefore it is easy to counter the Churchill.

That's not true at all. A pair of (layered) Pak 40s (full health, which they usually aren't) barely have enough DPS against the Churchill's armor and HP to take it down to 50-75% HP on its charge before it kills the first one with its rather good AOE damage and grenades the second one. And I've been generous to the Paks in these tests by giving them 60 range vision. Not to mention Rakettens which are even worse. Only two vet 3 Paks stand a chance to take it below 50% HP before it kills them both.

And even if it gets hurt or snared, there's the engine smoke that turns it invisible on retreating making it super hard to finish it off with attack ground.

Again I'm completely fine with the Churchill being able to tank a dozen shots with its armor and HP pool because that's its role, but the "self defense" grenade that casually allows it to drive up to ATGs and wipe them almost instantly should be removed imo.

I imagine you think the comet is OP then?

Because comet can sweep into Pak range much quicker and grenade a Pak ...

Except the game doesn't play out like this and in reality you're just snared with a dead fish tank getting popped by a single Stug while he recrews Pak.