Wehrmacht problems.

Su-85 can selfspot with vet 1 ability without any penalties. It can actually combine the 2 abilities and have one of longest sight bonuses.

Umm, but you do realize that vet1 was nerfed very hard in the past and its cost was doubled?
It only increases sight range slightly compared to almost doubling it in the past.

For the sake of semantic argument - yes, it does increases sight over 35.
But for the reality of the ability potency - no, its only good for checking if there is infantry around in FoW.

Umm, but you do realize that vet1 was nerfed very hard in the past and its cost was doubled?
It only increases sight range slightly compared to almost doubling it in the past.

For the sake of semantic argument - yes, it does increases sight over 35.
But for the reality of the ability potency - no, its only good for checking if there is infantry around in FoW.

What happened in the past, years ago, is irrelevant, there was a time when Elephant was a stock unit and it hardly the only reckon ability that has been nerfed in the past. It is it's current performance that is currently the issue.

The claim it only "slightly increase sight" is false it provide x140% sight increase giving the unit 49 sight. In addition it can be combined with with focus sight to achieve sight close to 90.

The claim it only good "for checking around for infatry in FOW"it also false since it provide mini map information up to range 70 range for both infatry and vehicles. The cost is actually low.

The ability is far superior to "Infantry Awareness".

Panther suffer from the fact that when their armor was lowered the Penetration of stock allied TD's was not also nerfed.

Allied stock TD are not meant to engage JT and Elephant frontally, if they prove a problem one can easily lower their frontal armor accordingly.

KT is actually a unit that is UP and it would be in far better place if allied stock TD's penetration was not that high.

If panther armor was lowered it was purely to give allied TDs a chance to counter it and remove the preponderant RNG effect of that match. So how lowering as well their penetration rate would help in that matter?
Jackson dps has been lowered in exchange for this sole reason, so the match vs panther is less of a flip coin party. At the same time the SU85 has seen changes so it specialized more in countering panthers and bigger cats and less medium tanks. On the other hand if I'm not mistaken (you tell me you are the expert here) panthers have seen their health increased and balance team did their best to make it more accessible at the cost of also making brumbar more accessible.

Allied stock TD are meant to engage JT, Elefant and other frontally since the balance team failed to give allied factions other strategies than that or callin airplane or arty saturation or suicidal flanking.

Although we're agreeing on one point, JT and such should have seen their armor being more reduced and removed their status of super heavy to get a better overall balance between factions.

If panther armor was lowered it was purely to give allied TDs a chance to counter it and remove the preponderant RNG effect of that match. So how lowering as well their penetration rate would help in that matter?

That was not what the Panther change was about. The Panther's durability was moved from vet 2 to vet 0. Panther is now more durably at vet 0 but less durably at vet 2.

Jackson dps has been lowered in exchange for this sole reason, so the match vs panther is less of a flip coin party.

Not really. M36 got less damage but Higher ROF and Penetration. Its DPS was probably increased vs Panther.

At the same time the SU85 has seen changes so it specialized more in countering panthers and bigger cats and less medium tanks. On the other hand if I'm not mistaken (you tell me you are the expert here) panthers have seen their health increased and balance team did their best to make it more accessible at the cost of also making brumbar more accessible.

SU-85 has no trouble dealing with medium tanks since it has nearly 100% chance to hit and penetrate them at all ranges.

Allied stock TD are meant to engage JT, Elefant and other frontally since the balance team failed to give allied factions other strategies than that or callin airplane or arty saturation or suicidal flanking.

Although we're agreeing on one point, JT and such should have seen their armor being more reduced and removed their status of super heavy to get a better overall balance between factions.

Not really. Elephant and JT are specifically because there is little else Axis has to use against allied TD protected by heavily armed infatry.

And allied do have another of option vs Elephant and JT including durable heavily armed AT squads.

According to forum wehrmacht is OP

That was not what the Panther change was about. The Panther's durability was moved from vet 2 to vet 0. Panther is now more durably at vet 0 but less durably at vet 2.


Not really. M36 got less damage but Higher ROF and Penetration. Its DPS was probably increased vs Panther.


SU-85 has no trouble dealing with medium tanks since it has nearly 100% chance to hit and penetrate them at all ranges.


Not really. Elephant and JT are specifically because there is little else Axis has to use against allied TD protected by heavily armed infatry.

And allied do have another of option vs Elephant and JT including durable heavily armed AT squads.

Panther durability was made more consistent and that's all, I don't know what you are trying to explain here. Allies TD's dps have also been made more consistent vs it through different variables for the sake of balance, here again I don't know what your are trying to demonstrate.
We all know Jackson or SU85 are good counter vs the panther and from balance perspective this is the goal to achieve. Now are they too good is a problem of various faction's design choices where allied TDs also need to fight other types of armor bigger than the panther and the fact that what the panther is supposedly countering being not so meta at the moment.
As far as I see the game, panther still counter very well sherman (all variant), T34/85 or cromwell and is the get to go vs churchill, pershing, IS-2 or ISU. Sadly yes, those units, at the exception of the churchill aren't see so much on team game which consist today on spaming arty and TDs for both sides.

Panther durability was made more consistent and that's all, I don't know what you are trying to explain here.

I am clarifying your claim that "panthers have seen their health increased" at your request. The claim can lead to misunderstandings since the Panther become stronger at vet 0 weaker at vet 2.

Allies TD's dps have also been made more consistent vs it through different variables for the sake of balance, here again I don't know what your are trying to demonstrate.

Again I am clarifying in your claim that "Jackson dps has been lowered...", M36 has received serous buff and it much stronger than it was during its "glass cannon" design.
The same goes for SU-85.

We all know Jackson or SU85 are good counter vs the panther and from balance perspective this is the goal to achieve. Now are they too good is a problem of various faction's design choices where allied TDs also need to fight other types of armor bigger than the panther and the fact that what the panther is supposedly countering being not so meta at the moment.
As far as I see the game, panther still counter very well sherman (all variant), T34/85 or cromwell and is the get to go vs churchill, pershing, IS-2 or ISU. Sadly yes, those units, at the exception of the churchill aren't see so much on team game which consist today on spaming arty and TDs for both sides.

The problem is quite simply that effectiveness of allied TDs/Heavily armed infatry is so high that creates a still meta.

And continuing to buff allied Tank to make them a more a attractive alternative to TD/Infantry is a step in the wrong direction.

I am clarifying your claim that "panthers have seen their health increased" at your request. The claim can lead to misunderstandings since the Panther become stronger at vet 0 weaker at vet 2.


Again I am clarifying in your claim that "Jackson dps has been lowered...", M36 has received serous buff and it much stronger than it was during its "glass cannon" design.
The same goes for SU-85.


The problem is quite simply that effectiveness of allied TDs/Heavily armed infatry is so high that creates a still meta.

And continuing to buff allied Tank to make them a more a attractive alternative to TD/Infantry is a step in the wrong direction.

Su85, having high pen is fine, as it has glaring weaknesses in its speed, rotation and lack of turret whilst jackson is the main culprit of blatantly OP TD. Personally i would also prefer if they reverted the vet re shuffle on the panther. Its slight buffs to its offensive bonuses were enough

Su85, having high pen is fine, as it has glaring weaknesses in its speed, rotation and lack of turret whilst jackson is the main culprit of blatantly OP TD. Personally i would also prefer if they reverted the vet re shuffle on the panther. Its slight buffs to its offensive bonuses were enough

Su-85 punches way above it price and pop especially when vetted. Once vetted the unit has nearly 100% chance to hit and penetrate most Axis vehicles while it ROF is very good.

I am clarifying your claim that "panthers have seen their health increased" at your request. The claim can lead to misunderstandings since the Panther become stronger at vet 0 weaker at vet 2.


Again I am clarifying in your claim that "Jackson dps has been lowered...", M36 has received serous buff and it much stronger than it was during its "glass cannon" design.
The same goes for SU-85.


The problem is quite simply that effectiveness of allied TDs/Heavily armed infatry is so high that creates a still meta.

And continuing to buff allied Tank to make them a more a attractive alternative to TD/Infantry is a step in the wrong direction.

Yes, that's probably why the best way to deal with JTG or Elefant remains Arty saturation or AT strafing runs after being able to damage engine them.
It may blow your mind (credit Katitof) but powercreep is a matter of all factions and if we cannot simply nerf on side without doing the same process for the other, yes including Ostheer.

You haven't really demonstrated your various points about the panther while I was simply pointing out that Panther and allied TDs haven been redesigned in a whole finding strategic changes to make them unique but balanced and that if the panther were suffering anything today is that only the Super-Heavy tank factor that shadows him.
Again, I'm not giving a judgement, just pointing out a fact. And the fact that with so many variables balance has its own boundaries more tied than we can suspect.

Although I agree with you, reducing the over dominance of Arty and TDs shouldn't goes through directly buffing mediums but probably nerfing Arty and some other stuff going again medium tanks play. Personally I don't think TDs need to be nerfed if we can make medium tanks more reliable on the late game (using various upgrades)

Allied strong and durable at squads cant pen or do enough damage frontaly to super heavies. Unless someone isent paying attention. Those squads are hardly able to flank in anything above 2v2 games. Not that they are bad but their use is mostly limited to medium and premium mediums imo.

The allied td buff was imo a good change. Td,s can now fight a panther instead of praying to rngesus for a penetrating hit. Or not dying to a sneeze after getting one shot off.

As for allied td,s needing to fight super heavies. The nerfed a lot of stuff worked before and they dont really have a choice now. As a result axis mediums got hurt, where they were to effective before.

Okw has stronger versions for both p4 and p5, ost has get out of jail free smoke in quite a few doctrines.

Yes, that's probably why the best way to deal with JTG or Elefant remains Arty saturation or AT strafing runs after being able to damage engine them.
It may blow your mind (credit Katitof) but powercreep is a matter of all factions and if we cannot simply nerf on side without doing the same process for the other, yes including Ostheer.

You haven't really demonstrated your various points about the panther while I was simply pointing out that Panther and allied TDs haven been redesigned in a whole finding strategic changes to make them unique but balanced and that if the panther were suffering anything today is that only the Super-Heavy tank factor that shadows him.
Again, I'm not giving a judgement, just pointing out a fact. And the fact that with so many variables balance has its own boundaries more tied than we can suspect.

Although I agree with you, reducing the over dominance of Arty and TDs shouldn't goes through directly buffing mediums but probably nerfing Arty and some other stuff going again medium tanks play. Personally I don't think TDs need to be nerfed if we can make medium tanks more reliable on the late game (using various upgrades)

The time to buff unit has past many patches ago, it is time to start nerfing. Else completely remove RNG mechanics and replace armor with damage reduction.

The time to buff unit has past many patches ago, it is time to start nerfing. Else completely remove RNG mechanics and replace armor with damage reduction.

I carefully used "upgrades" which is not "buff". Upgrade comes at cost of resources and suppose a dedication into it.
A good example is the sherman dozer blades, that's an interesting upgrade that make sherman more appealing on which the player need to sink munition and force the opponent to adapt.
Such individual upgrades are interesting in term of gameplay, we could imagine an upgrade that change the trigger for the damage engine to a higher requirement (dunno, example to 50% health) so medium tanks with that upgrade would be less subject to mines or atnade creating new opening to chase behind the lines. etc...

Imo biggest problem for ost is their units dont scale as well, especially their td which takes heavy popcap along with pioneers. At vet0 they are all good without feeling unbalanced.

Hence i suggest to give p4 panther stun shot at vet1 to keep the theme of mobile assualt. Perhaps move accuracy from 0.5 to 0.6 at vet2. And reduce infantry chance of squad wipe when late game arty are the norm. Hell relic just made calliope better.

Su85 maybe turret less but it doesn't really need to flank panthers does it? Besides allies snares are much better than faust simply because of speed of throw.

A thing with jtg and elefant, they are really expensive now on popcap starved ost, and they don't do nothing against infantry. You win games via infantry, of which allies are better.

Besides imo allies td are more than equipped to deal with them now. Not just barely, but comfortably. You cannot say the same for ost to deal with allies heavies, they just barely enough to hold back, speaking from a 2v2 player

Although I agree with you, reducing the over dominance of Arty and TDs shouldn't goes through directly buffing mediums but probably nerfing Arty and some other stuff going again medium tanks play. Personally I don't think TDs need to be nerfed if we can make medium tanks more reliable on the late game (using various upgrades)

If you nerf artillery, you make team weapons stronger. That makes medium tanks weaker, not stronger.

The simple fact of the matter is that 4 hit mediums just aren't ideal for laney maps that favour team weapons. There's just too much anti-tank firepower around to reliably preserve them.

As a result, more survivable tanks (long range tank destroyers, heavy tanks) are favoured on that sort of map.

That's not inherent to teamgames but to the map pool. If you made a 1v1 map half the width of Kharkov, it'd turn into an artillery showdown. Likewise, if you played a 2v2 on a 4v4 map, more mobile, versatile units like medium tanks and infantry would be more powerful than more static, higher firepower specialists.

It depends on how you nerf them.
You can limit them 1 per player (from ML20 to Priest, Lefh etc...), that's already a substantial nerf for team game that doesn't affect 1vs1 or even 2vs2.
You can increase the reload time.
You can decrease their range.
Or effectively you can nerf their raw stats and vet bonus.

And then you can give them smoke barrage to make them more combined arm friendly.

I definitely favour changing arty and mortar. Its a lazy meta now in team games. Perhaps have weapon team survive with one man. Or arty does more health damage instead of instant squad wipes. You need to action and move in to finish them off instead of lazy scatter wins.

It depends on how you nerf them.
You can limit them 1 per player (from ML20 to Priest, Lefh etc...), that's already a substantial nerf for team game that doesn't affect 1vs1 or even 2vs2.
You can increase the reload time.
You can decrease their range.
Or effectively you can nerf their raw stats and vet bonus.

And then you can give them smoke barrage to make them more combined arm friendly.

All of those reduce the effectiveness of indirect fire at clearing out anti-tank positions.

Those changes could well be improvements to teamgames, but they won't make medium tanks more effective in them.

I carefully used "upgrades" which is not "buff". Upgrade comes at cost of resources and suppose a dedication into it.
A good example is the sherman dozer blades, that's an interesting upgrade that make sherman more appealing on which the player need to sink munition and force the opponent to adapt.
Such individual upgrades are interesting in term of gameplay, we could imagine an upgrade that change the trigger for the damage engine to a higher requirement (dunno, example to 50% health) so medium tanks with that upgrade would be less subject to mines or atnade creating new opening to chase behind the lines. etc...

The dozer is "upgrade" is not interesting and after the patch it will cost fuel and manpower not MU.

The majority of Allie medium do not need buff or upgrades, they are cost efficient. The main reason that they do not see action is that Td/infatry spam is better/safer choice.