251 Flak Halftrack

The December Balance Patch (aka the first commander revamp) in December 2017 flipped the then OKW meta on its head. Amongst other nerfs, the Luchs's build time was raised from 40 seconds to a whopping 85.

Mechanized became off-meta. The dominant build was Battlegroup, using the 251 Flak Halftrack as the shock unit instead.

Then the Spring Balance Patch hit in the middle of the GCS qualifiers. This patch wasn't very well received. The first version was full of bizarre nerfs to barely used units, and even the final version seemed determined to turn the then weak UKF into an unplayable meme.

SBP also partially rolled back the Luchs build time, making it 60 seconds.

However, in the style of patches before, it also hit the Flak HT with a double nerf. It had the price of its smoke raised and its suppression cut in half.

Predictably, this put the Battlegroup/Mechanized right back where it started: Mechanized good, Battlegroup bad.

Then the Second Commander Revamp hit. Thanks the USF's much needed tech restructure and UKF's resurrection as a competitively viable faction, the 251 now has to contend with AECs and Stuarts. The Luchs has Puma support: the 251 has to make do with the Raketenwerfer.

As a result, Mechanized is king and Battlegroup is irrelevant.



In light of this, might it be worth reverting SBP's nerfs to the Flak HT? It wasn't really a problem back when it was meta: now the Luchs is back and USF has the Stuart in Lieutenant I can't see it being a problem.

I've seen good use of the flak trak. It's kind of aggressively defensive if that makes sense. It allows for complete domination of the area (provided there isn't an AT gun around) as the the med truck I personally find it to be attractive but not flashy like the mech. It has great tools in it, but they are more passive which players don't generally like and quite frankly passive play isn't why you pick the OKW. I think it's a feels thing more than an actual issue if that makes sense. The addition of smoke the the leig alone makes bghq attractive to many.

I've seen good use of the flak trak. It's kind of aggressively defensive if that makes sense. It allows for complete domination of the area (provided there isn't an AT gun around) as the the med truck I personally find it to be attractive but not flashy like the mech. It has great tools in it, but they are more passive which players don't generally like and quite frankly passive play isn't why you pick the OKW. I think it's a feels thing more than an actual issue if that makes sense. The addition of smoke the the leig alone makes bghq attractive to many.

The SBP changes are a pretty stark difference. The old 251 Flak pinned very quickly. It had less mobility than the Luchs, but you needed a support weapon or vehicle to fight it.

The current one struggles to fight off PTRS squads and just seems flat out inferior to the Luchs. Combine that with giving up the Puma option and you've got a recipe for Mechanized almost always being the play outside of coordinated teamgames.

Predictably, this put the Battlegroup/Mechanized right back where it started: Mechanized good, Battlegroup bad.

[…]

As a result, Mechanized is king and Battlegroup is irrelevant.

Given the limited variety in OKW units, Battlegroup can never be made to match up against Mechanized by shuffling around units. Buffing the 251 Flak HT or the ISG won't really change that either, as I don't think it would ever be enough.


Instead, I think it's best to try to indirectly make Battlegroup more attractive by splitting the T4 tech in half and by making the Raketten more reliable (longer range, better durability).

If Obers (and maybe the JP4) can come soon enough, together with a more reliable ATG, it might be able to contest Mechanized and then Battlegroup will indirectly benefit by being more attractive due to its cheaper teching cost.

Putting the Ostwind and Hetzer behind the same "T3.5" tech could make it even more attractive.

I actually dont dislike current 251FHt. Its harder to make it worth, normally coupled with a HMG is the other player is massing inf.

The problem with prenerf 251 was it could outperform easily with its fast set up times and could rush into infantry.

I would like to see a minor buff on it, but in exange of nerfing its set up time

Given the limited variety in OKW units, Battlegroup can never be made to match up against Mechanized by shuffling around units. Buffing the 251 Flak HT or the ISG won't really change that either.


Instead, I think it's best to try to indirectly make Battlegroup more attractive by splitting the T4 tech in half and by making the Raketten more reliable (longer range, better durability).

If Obers (and maybe the JP4) can come soon enough, together with a more reliable ATG, it might be able to contest Mechanized and Battlegroup will benefit from being more attractive to use because its cheaper cost would make teching to "T3.5" even faster.

Putting the Ostwind and Hetzer behind the same "T3.5" tech could make it even more attractive.

I agree with that tech split. However, I still think the 251 could stand to have its suppression reverted to its previous level.

The problem with prenerf 251 was it could outperform easily with its fast set up times and could rush into infantry.

That's the point of it. It's a mobile suppression platform.

If you want a defensive suppression platform, you use an HMG.

I agree then.
I know its a little offtopic, but i would like to increase the scope of the topic for a while, considering other faction mobile supp platforms.

SU Quad got a little buff
OST ostwind got buffed
USF shouldnt need buff, but i might be wrong
UKF centaurs got nerfed in their cost iirc.
OKM is being discussed right now

Its fine to have some sort of balance between similar role units, at least taking account each faction strong/weak aspects.

Edit: What should be the ideal situation for a mobile supp? Is it fair to let every faction do it?

I think OKW units is good，but OKW need rework tech tree

I would try 2 fire modes for AAHT. One that does damage but does not suppresses one that does little damage but suppresses.

I would try 2 fire modes for AAHT. One that does damage but does not suppresses one that does little damage but suppresses.

I like this idea, one uses a very short fused flak ammo and the other some variant of AP for LVs maybe?

With penals being the mainstay choice as well as USF mechanized, the flaktrack received a very significant indirect nerf because of them. There is literally zero chance a 251 flaktrack can successfully defend itself from a clown car rush. You're required to babysit it. The luchs can operate on its own if need be and can kite successfully. I think the restraint of the flaktrack in the meta makes it less attractive.

Also in the OP post, the luchs time never made it to 85 seconds. It was in the notes for 2.0(?) but was lowered to 75 in live. Unsure if it ever made its build time to 60 seconds.

As far as the actual question goes, no I don't think it should be reverted. The pre nerf flaktrack was very oppressive vs infantry with near zero counterplay without a light vehicle. Now instead of suppressing in 1 shot, it suppresses in 2-3, which is perfectly fine IMO.

Rather than give back it's old suppression I would just give it either a damage boost or slight range increase

I think it needs a damage buff only. 16 is pretty much a joke considering it has no mg. Make it 20 damage as it was to have it more in action than it currently does. The american AA is currently more useful and does more damage overall. I did not see any reason for Flak Half Track being nerfed in any way it currently is.

20 damage is what it needs. Vets relatively slow too. I think a buff in damage would make it come into more action. Currently its timing is what makes it all the more vulnerable. So a damage buff is necessary.

I think a small health buff would make it pretty viable, since when Vet 2/3 it's really strong and can shred infantry. Having it able to survive more than two AT shots would be perfect. Something like a Luchs or Puma is now.

Also maybe reduce the Vet requirements somewhat so I can become a beast a bit faster.

The December Balance Patch (aka the first commander revamp) in December 2017 flipped the then OKW meta on its head. Amongst other nerfs, the Luchs's build time was raised from 40 seconds to a whopping 85.

Mechanized became off-meta. The dominant build was Battlegroup, using the 251 Flak Halftrack as the shock unit instead.

Then the Spring Balance Patch hit in the middle of the GCS qualifiers. This patch wasn't very well received. The first version was full of bizarre nerfs to barely used units, and even the final version seemed determined to turn the then weak UKF into an unplayable meme.

SBP also partially rolled back the Luchs build time, making it 60 seconds.

However, in the style of patches before, it also hit the Flak HT with a double nerf. It had the price of its smoke raised and its suppression cut in half.

Predictably, this put the Battlegroup/Mechanized right back where it started: Mechanized good, Battlegroup bad.

Then the Second Commander Revamp hit. Thanks the USF's much needed tech restructure and UKF's resurrection as a competitively viable faction, the 251 now has to contend with AECs and Stuarts. The Luchs has Puma support: the 251 has to make do with the Raketenwerfer.

As a result, Mechanized is king and Battlegroup is irrelevant.



In light of this, might it be worth reverting SBP's nerfs to the Flak HT? It wasn't really a problem back when it was meta: now the Luchs is back and USF has the Stuart in Lieutenant I can't see it being a problem.

Oh, it WAS a hell of a problem pre-spring nerf.
Every infantry unit getting pinned in less then a second, even in green cover, really wasnt a fun play.

Besides, it´s still very effective against Soviets, since it still pinns the PTRSs squad very fast, just not as quickly as before.

The only buff it might deserve would be cheaper smoke

The smoke cost buff and a slight sight range improvement too

Oh, it WAS a hell of a problem pre-spring nerf.
Every infantry unit getting pinned in less then a second, even in green cover, really wasnt a fun play.

But it came in a tier building that lacks AT.

Now it's arguably worse than the Luchs and comes with no anti-tank support unit.

no need to change

251 flak is fine

But it came in a tier building that lacks AT.

Now it's arguably worse than the Luchs and comes with no anti-tank support unit.

Yeah but raks (unless unsupported by fausts) reliabily handle any LV that has literaly no infantry support

+ Its better against opponent who is using handheld AT, as I already explained

It also shoots down planes

It can also do great AT damage itself- while having no chance to 1vs1 anything, it deals with them if it has faust support

One could also argue that the Medical HQ shouldnt have that strong vehicle support, since it offers healing and a gun (albeit a very weak one) to dislodge ATs- although I dont think this is a good design and the OKW could use a rework, but the 251 unit works well

But it came in a tier building that lacks AT.

Now it's arguably worse than the Luchs and comes with no anti-tank support unit.

Every tier as OKW has AT support though just like every Ost tier has MG support. The rak is t0 so it's always available no matter how you tech and no matter of you lose a building.