Anyone else feel the 30% moving accuracy penalty is too harsh for the USF M3? I can understand for the earlier WC51, but 30% on the M3 would make it not worth the cost/risk for both Cavs and Zooks. 40% is less harsh and gets compensated by the extra passenger shooting out.
Harassing with squads in it is the main purpose of the M3, it should stay effective at it.
USF Core changes commander Revamp Patch
4 May 2019, 09:38 AM
#41
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
4 May 2019, 15:43 PM
#42
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
Anyone else feel the 30% moving accuracy penalty is too harsh for the USF M3? I can understand for the earlier WC51, but 30% on the M3 would make it not worth the cost/risk for both Cavs and Zooks. 40% is less harsh and gets compensated by the extra passenger shooting out.
Harassing with squads in it is the main purpose of the M3, it should stay effective at it.
That's just how heavy handed USF nerfs tend to be, units just get neutered, like the Stuart, the Calliope and now the Mechanized Groups.
4 May 2019, 20:27 PM
#43
Posts: 3053
Anyone else feel the 30% moving accuracy penalty is too harsh for the USF M3? I can understand for the earlier WC51, but 30% on the M3 would make it not worth the cost/risk for both Cavs and Zooks. 40% is less harsh and gets compensated by the extra passenger shooting out.
Harassing with squads in it is the main purpose of the M3, it should stay effective at it.
Especially with 250 still being the same as what it is despite coming even earlier than M3.
IMO m3 should come after an officer tech, not the full tech. That would put it more in line with 250 as they're kind of counterparts. Agreed on the 40% thing too.
But I'd like to restate a proposition I made a while ago: I'd much rather see the WC51 lose the ability to carry infantry squads and have its mg stock instead, and increase cost to like 250-270 to compensate. That way it'd be more of a recon/harassment support unit, more like the jeep from coh1, instead of a cheesy wipe machine like it is now. It'd still retain the ability to cap stuff too. Basically a kubel on roids, which would be fine IMO given that it's a doctrinal unit and has kind of crappy armor.
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5 May 2019, 06:45 AM
#44
Posts: 607
So TR did another neat video, with the dodge chasing a retreating Volks squad. Three versions of it.
I uhh... well, RIP.
I uhh... well, RIP.
5 May 2019, 14:54 PM
#45
Posts: 3260
So TR did another neat video, with the dodge chasing a retreating Volks squad. Three versions of it.
I uhh... well, RIP.
Why?
If the WC-51's only use is butchering retreating squads, then it's a bad design that needs a rework.
The way I see it, this change achieved exactly what it was meant to. The WC51 still has full firepower if you just hit the stop key, but it's not a death sentence for retreating squads any more.
5 May 2019, 18:14 PM
#46
Posts: 607
It's not an anything sentence for retreating squads, from the looks of it.
I mean, you may want to shoot while on my the move to harass without it being exclusively against retreating quads -- like say when flanking an AT gun, an HMG, or maybe it's just not a good idea to stay still.
In the three trials the only one that knocked a single model off when chasing halfway through the map was when the squad and the jeep were upgraded.
Having said that, there is always RNG to deal with, so who knows.
It doesn't affect me directly either way, I don't use this commander.
I mean, you may want to shoot while on my the move to harass without it being exclusively against retreating quads -- like say when flanking an AT gun, an HMG, or maybe it's just not a good idea to stay still.
In the three trials the only one that knocked a single model off when chasing halfway through the map was when the squad and the jeep were upgraded.
Having said that, there is always RNG to deal with, so who knows.
It doesn't affect me directly either way, I don't use this commander.
5 May 2019, 18:58 PM
#47
Posts: 3260
It's not an anything sentence for retreating squads, from the looks of it.
I mean, you may want to shoot while on my the move to harass without it being exclusively against retreating quads -- like say when flanking an AT gun, an HMG, or maybe it's just not a good idea to stay still.
In the three trials the only one that knocked a single model off when chasing halfway through the map was when the squad and the jeep were upgraded.
Having said that, there is always RNG to deal with, so who knows.
It doesn't affect me directly either way, I don't use this commander.
The whole problem with the WC51 was if you retreat from it the Cav Rifles inside will wipe your squad before you get back to base even on 1v1 maps.
Combine that with the lack of counters at CP1 and it becomes a serious problem.
Remember that retreating squads get a circa 50% received accuracy boost. The effect won't be anywhere near as extreme versus non-retreating units.
5 May 2019, 20:59 PM
#48
Posts: 607
Sure, but let me ask this -- how many models _should_ you be able to drop when chasing a retreating squad with an upgraded light vehicle + upgraded squad inside?
What's a "fair" amount? I'm not posing an argument, I'm genuinely asking.
What's a "fair" amount? I'm not posing an argument, I'm genuinely asking.
5 May 2019, 21:47 PM
#49
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
Sure, but let me ask this -- how many models _should_ you be able to drop when chasing a retreating squad with an upgraded light vehicle + upgraded squad inside?
What's a "fair" amount? I'm not posing an argument, I'm genuinely asking.
Not enough to get wipes on full health squads unless red cover is involved.
5 May 2019, 22:32 PM
#50
Posts: 3260
Sure, but let me ask this -- how many models _should_ you be able to drop when chasing a retreating squad with an upgraded light vehicle + upgraded squad inside?
What's a "fair" amount? I'm not posing an argument, I'm genuinely asking.
Reliably?
One.
Two if they're very low on health and you're lucky.
That's the performance of the Luchs and T-70, dedicated, pricey anti-infantry vehicles that hit at timings where counters are deployed and dives are risky.
5 May 2019, 22:51 PM
#51
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
2 infantry squads(as long as they are not LMG grens) can drop half of a squad passing through them in a matter of 5 seconds.
Light transport+upgraded squad inside should be able to drop anything between 1 model and full squad, depending on chase distance - if you overextended, even single 222 given long enough chase will wipe half a squad of cons.
Light transport+upgraded squad inside should be able to drop anything between 1 model and full squad, depending on chase distance - if you overextended, even single 222 given long enough chase will wipe half a squad of cons.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
5 May 2019, 23:03 PM
#52
Posts: 2358
The best answer would be:
How risky is to stand and fight (W/L ratio) vs chances to have at least 1 survivor on the retreating squad (RA/Moving Acc ratio)
Each stance, I.e. 222s vs riflemen / cons vs FHT / Dodge vs Grens / ... can be averaged and then define the best value for moving acc. Some squads will have an easier time to defend themselves, other should run as soon as the danger of being rush wiped appears
How risky is to stand and fight (W/L ratio) vs chances to have at least 1 survivor on the retreating squad (RA/Moving Acc ratio)
Each stance, I.e. 222s vs riflemen / cons vs FHT / Dodge vs Grens / ... can be averaged and then define the best value for moving acc. Some squads will have an easier time to defend themselves, other should run as soon as the danger of being rush wiped appears
5 May 2019, 23:13 PM
#53
Posts: 3260
The best answer would be:
How risky is to stand and fight (W/L ratio) vs chances to have at least 1 survivor on the retreating squad (RA/Moving Acc ratio)
Each stance, I.e. 222s vs riflemen / cons vs FHT / Dodge vs Grens / ... can be averaged and then define the best value for moving acc. Some squads will have an easier time to defend themselves, other should run as soon as the danger of being rush wiped appears
No, the answer is to not have minute zero shock units.
Extreme risk/reward mechanics are endlessly frustrating. The OKW/SOV matchup is an excellent example of how bad this has gotten: the fate of the first M3A1 often decides the game.
2 infantry squads(as long as they are not LMG grens) can drop half of a squad passing through them in a matter of 5 seconds.
Light transport+upgraded squad inside should be able to drop anything between 1 model and full squad, depending on chase distance - if you overextended, even single 222 given long enough chase will wipe half a squad of cons.
I'm talking half the length of Crossroads here.
In teamgames all the bets are off.
6 May 2019, 04:03 AM
#54
Posts: 3053
I really still feel that dodge not being able to carry inf and instead having gun by default is the best solution here. Especially with cav rifles being a thing too. That way the thing stays useful and isn't cheesy.
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6 May 2019, 04:16 AM
#55
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
I really still feel that dodge not being able to carry inf and instead having gun by default is the best solution here. Especially with cav rifles being a thing too. That way the thing stays useful and isn't cheesy.
This ^
Just remove the carrying wipe machine garbage and WC51 will be fine.
6 May 2019, 04:46 AM
#56
Posts: 3053
This ^
Just remove the carrying wipe machine garbage and WC51 will be fine.
Yessss. And usf benefits too because you get the mg stock and don't have to pay muni for it (IMO the MP cost should go up should that happen). Like I said in an earlier post, basically a doctrinal kubel on roids.
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6 May 2019, 06:16 AM
#57
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
May they hear you, that would be a nice fix, but can they revert the nerf on the Halftrack regardless?
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