Bialystok Market - Spring Automatch Discussion

For any discussion relevant to Bialystok Market, please use this.

I can remember when i checked for Relic all 2vs2 maps for the contest.
I don't know, why Relic did not came to me again. I guess because they know that i am very busy atm.
Just some points I found, when i look into this map.

A) Putting yellow cover near greencover is a bad idea. As you can see rip green cover
http://prntscr.com/ndl4a0

B) You can't cap the Vp from north side while staying in cover. But from south side you can cap and stay in cover
http://prntscr.com/ndl4a0

C) better cover for north players, while capping
https://prnt.sc/ndo0z4

D) North fuel house favours right side. You can easy attack it with inf, without getting pinned.
--> useless for left side
Also covers fuel and 1 strategy point
http://prntscr.com/ndl7ch

E) South fuel house favours right side. You can easy attack it with groundattack flamers
http://prntscr.com/ndl8b1

F) Move it pls. With a misclick you can jump over it and then you are caught.
http://prntscr.com/ndnyvw

G) Make it larger. German at gun can move through it, but not the brit at gun, thx to the size of 3...
http://prntscr.com/ndld9j

H) Make it larger. German at gun can move through it, but not the brit at gun, thx to the size of 3...
http://prntscr.com/ndldyb

I) It has a (2) in his name. But its a 2vs2 map, right? --> (4)

Same as ponary, had to talk to you on steam about these, are easy fixes, for the ones I agree with. And can be fixed quickly.

Am I the only one who read it as "Blyatstock market" at first?

All changes/issues from SP have been fixed.

• Cover in North VP adjusted
  
• Territory points with cover differences adjusted
  
• Fuel buildings removed (there was no way with the core layout of the map to allow these to stay with the asymmetrical design and still have it be fair)
  
• Vaultable cover that traps you removed
  
• Archways have been kept as they are visually nice, and non-hightraffic areas.
  
• Base section in the south and north adjusted to keep players from building to far out into the map
  
• Bunkers adjusted slightly
  
• Rally points added
  
• Base rotation adjusted
  

I like the map, urban but not a lot of buildings, close combat units will find a use again where they are really effective, even tho it looks kinda narrow you got many flanking opportunities

the map is fine but there has to be some changes. fuel point has to move further. mg's can shoot through collapsed buildings or normal infantry is that a bug or is it on purpose? What about red cover in general in some areas?

the map is fine but there has to be some changes. fuel point has to move further. mg's can shoot through collapsed buildings or normal infantry is that a bug or is it on purpose? What about red cover in general in some areas?

Should be zero red cover, if there are shooting through damaged building rows that is a bug and I will have to manually fix it, it wasn't near the middle VP was it?

And yah I agree with the fuel and cutoff changes (as we discussed). I think at the bare minimum the fuel/munitions needs swapped, but I might find a bit more creative way to deal with it before the an update.

For those that played prior, this is the new layout. Also improved pathing in two points that was missed.

Tric how do you even play this map?

All our matches in this map have been close to a living hell.
There is no room to flank heavy armour. Lategame is just each side brute forcing through the main streets under the rain of arty and planes.

Its really hard to position fixed turreted TDs.

Sturms can just rush and camp both fuels. On the same note, while the northern fuel is neutral in terms of cover placement, the cover at the southern fuel favors the northern player.

Tric how do you even play this map?

All our matches in this map have been close to a living hell.
There is no room to flank heavy armour. Lategame is just each side brute forcing through the main streets under the rain of arty and planes.

Its really hard to position fixed turreted TDs.

Sturms can just rush and camp both fuels. On the same note, while the northern fuel is neutral in terms of cover placement, the cover at the southern fuel favors the northern player.

Use your veto.

If there is no room to flank heavy armor, then turret-less tanks should perform really well. So which is it actually?

If sturms are rushing both a fuel and can just hold the point, well I have news for you, this happens on all maps, all the time. And both fuels have green cover to defend or assault from. So if you can provide some screens of what you are talking about that would be great, maybe something was overlooked during the update from over a month ago.

Literally 3 posts away is someone counteracting your statement, but they played the map 4 plus times and streamed it (before the updates even and against top 10 premades in voice chat), and actually took the time to not be condescending in their talks with me, so I was more than happy to listen, while you lead into your post with the first 4 statements are being either emotional (providing nothing), or literally going against themselves in one breath.

Also the "brute forcing through main streets under the rain of arty and planes"... have you seen late game tournament 2v2s? Quite literally all of them end up like this, do you want me to ban commanders with artillery or planes, not sure what you want me to do about commanders. Now for a post similar to ponary, with off map planes being too fast to react due to the positioning of the points on the edge of the map, that makes sense, here you don't provide a circumstance to say "well this is why" you literally just describing general gameplay... gameplay of a game that you most likely just lost.

I apologize for the mini-rant but I don't know what you want me to do with your post. I can't really glean anything from it other than you don't like it, and thats ok, hit it with a veto.

I played on this map and want to give some feedback and my personal opinion about this map.

OPINION
1. cochosgo has right about the main streets on this map. He may not used a good arguments and he didn't add any proposition to fix it but in main meaning he is right. They are the key of this map. Side that holds it rules the map and VPs. That could work in 1v1 gamemode but it's design to be 2v2.
2. Passages are quite narrow. Narrow enough to lock the side with 1 heavy MG and 1 AT gun. There is only 2 main streets that matters. That force players to focus support weapon, artillery and long range units. That leads to artillery feast later game which isn't pleasant, don't require a lot of skill from the player and games vs technicly weaker team can last way longer. Map isn't bad at early game but with time it becomes it in the later stages of a match.
3. Visually the map looks really nice, plenty of details that many basic maps lacks but that doesn't help Białystok Market to be competition map and definitely it's not a turney map.
4. Location of ammunition points is in both corners of the map. Becouse of the position of the bases makes it really hard to take from the oposite side. Of course there is a cut off on the center of the map - that's true but again, that\s to narrow design of the map and tactics uses on it (MG build or blobing) makes it hard to decap for long. That leads to the moment that both sides has constant income of ammo and a lot of off map abilities comming from a commanders which again isn't good.
5. Corners of the map are unused. Even if players will acually go to the enemy ammo point or territory near it - the retreat point will lead straight through mid there is the biggest clusterfuck (which basicly means dead squad). Again narrow design forces players to make big tactical groups (aka. blobs).
6. Even after big changes this map will never be a turney one like Rails and Metals, Crossing in the woods or Elst.
I WILL ADD MORE LATER

FEEDBACK
1. allow to move infantry between ruins (open mid VP for the infantry from north and south - currently it can be enter only from left and right),
2. move ammo point closer to the middle, center line of the map,
3. That may sound to drastical but i would also suggest change the side of the map. Make it wilder but in the same time a little shorter. There should be then enough space to move ammo points on to more competitive areas and allow players to move some forces from middle,
4. add more medium crush especially on left and right side,
5. channel on top right side - change the angle and size of it to be smaller.
I WILL ADD MORE LATER

https://prnt.sc/nr3jxr

Show Spoiler

I played on this map and want to give some feedback and my personal opinion about this map.

OPINION
1. cochosgo has right about the main streets on this map. He may not used a good arguments and he didn't add any proposition to fix it but in main meaning he is right. They are the key of this map. Side that holds it rules the map and VPs. That could work in 1v1 gamemode but it's design to be 2v2.
2. Passages are quite narrow. Narrow enough to lock the side with 1 heavy MG and 1 AT gun. There is only 2 main streets that matters. That force players to focus support weapon, artillery and long range units. That leads to artillery feast later game which isn't pleasant, don't require a lot of skill from the player and games vs technicly weaker team can last way longer. Map isn't bad at early game but with time it becomes it in the later stages of a match.
3. Visually the map looks really nice, plenty of details that many basic maps lacks but that doesn't help Białystok Market to be competition map and definitely it's not a turney map.
4. Location of ammunition points is in both corners of the map. Becouse of the position of the bases makes it really hard to take from the oposite side. Of course there is a cut off on the center of the map - that's true but again, that\s to narrow design of the map and tactics uses on it (MG build or blobing) makes it hard to decap for long. That leads to the moment that both sides has constant income of ammo and a lot of off map abilities comming from a commanders which again isn't good.
5. Corners of the map are unused. Even if players will acually go to the enemy ammo point or territory near it - the retreat point will lead straight through mid there is the biggest clusterfuck (which basicly means dead squad). Again narrow design forces players to make big tactical groups (aka. blobs).
6. Even after big changes this map will never be a turney one like Rails and Metals, Crossing in the woods or Elst.
I WILL ADD MORE LATER

FEEDBACK
1. allow to move infantry between ruins (open mid VP for the infantry from north and south - currently it can be enter only from left and right),
2. move ammo point closer to the middle, center line of the map,
3. That may sound to drastical but i would also suggest change the side of the map. Make it wilder but in the same time a little shorter. There should be then enough space to move ammo points on to more competitive areas and allow players to move some forces from middle,
4. add more medium crush especially on left and right side,
5. channel on top right side - change the angle and size of it to be smaller.
I WILL ADD MORE LATER

https://prnt.sc/nr3jxr

Show Spoiler

+100

Thank you for putting in the time and writting this. My brain which is currently melting from a narrow VP arty/blob fest game would not allow me to put such words to page.

Although I'd like to add, there's a lot of debris on the map like Caen used to have, and that REALLY stresses CPUs in a game which cannot spare an inch in terms of CPU power because it's too busy dumping all of it trying to figure out if a stuka should crash into your army.

Also I expereinced the "vilshanka bug" on this map.

Also I expereinced the "vilshanka bug" on this map.

Can you explain?

Can you explain?

The "vilshanka bug" which I'm refering too is when you lose your grid commands of units. They become unable to retreat, attack move, reverse, all of the commands you get in the lower right hand corner. The unit can only move.

Hey Tric,

Been queueing quite a few games into this map on 2v2 and it feels like it has potential but some parts of the execution are a bit off.

1. The map is too tight, a lot of the smaller alleys are designed well to give opportunity to flank, but because the map is quite tight often a single mg will cover 3-4 alleys and 3 mgs can cover the map. I think this detracts from the close quarter combat sort of gameplay and just ends up creating a very static game. I think if this map were 1v1 it may be a bit better but as it stands 2v2 its too claustrophobic


2. Alternative functions used to help flank? Maybe some smoke vision walls not sure if that's possible that can put units into grenade range to mgs right from the get go out? Would make sense in a city ruin and also add to the close quarter combat feel.

As it stands the dimensions should prolly be reassessed with mg42 arc in mind for 2v2.

I love this map for the opportunity for niche strategies to shine, but hate it because it gives niche strategies to shine, because nice strategies don’t get played often and aren’t usually balanced.

Great map, Tric!