Hull Down rework

Well, the idea is pretty simple. Your opinion always matters as this might be one of the last patches for CoH2.
My motives:
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The rework:
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TLDR:
To bring back OST to the current meta, bringing back hull down as a micro skill to increase OST tanks midgame presence.

Would you like to suggest changes/new ideas? Go on, this thread is about that.

Imo hull down should be renamed defensive positioning and provide bonuses custom made for each unit.

For instance Oswind could get suppression and StuG rotation speed.

Imo hull down should be renamed defensive positioning and provide bonuses custom made for each unit.

How do you propose to communicate this to the player without it becoming one big incoherent mess?

How do you propose to communicate this to the player without it becoming one big incoherent mess?

how do you communicate the different effects of Tank ambush in tank hunter commanders?

how do you communicate the different effects of Tank ambush in tank hunter commanders?

Hmm I don't know... oh no, I actually do know, by making it work exactly the same for all of them.
Detection range is the only difference between light and medium vehicles and it doesn't change how the ability works unit to unit.

Hmm I don't know... oh no, I actually do know, by making it work exactly the same for all of them.
Detection range is the only difference between light and medium vehicles and it doesn't change how the ability works unit to unit.

Another nice theory that is completely wrong:
ATG bonuses: First Strike bonuses to -25% reload, +20% accuracy, +20% penetration
Vehicles bonuses: First Strike bonus: +20% accuracy, + 20% penetration, +25% reload
Bonuses: detection 15 for light vehicles
Bonuses: Detection range to 20 for medium and heavy vehicles
Penalties Vehicles: Stops vehicle from moving, slows rotations by 85% when active
Panties ATGs: -80% speed

The abilities works differently according to the units type.

In addition in ver 2:
Tank Ambush
* Tanks no longer hull down
* Bush props are now visible if and only if the tank is visible
* Now only assault guns can rotate while ambushing

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Explaining how an ability work is hardly an issue for hull-down.

And yet, despite what you've said, all vehicles still are getting the same bonus, not custom tailored one.

And yet, despite what you've said, all vehicles still are getting the same bonus, not custom tailored one.

Reading comprehension:
What I posted:
"how do you communicate the different effects of Tank ambush in tank hunter commanders?"

What you wrote:
"And yet, despite what you've said, all vehicles still are getting the same bonus, not custom tailored one."

and even that is also wrong:
Bonuses: detection 15 for light vehicles
Bonuses: Detection range to 20 for medium and heavy vehicles

Now instead of trying to prove me wrong and derailing another thread, face the fact that 70% of the Elephant does not use the frontal armor, that tank hunter ambush works differently from unit to unit, pls stop putting words in my mouth and generally try be to more constructive.

Bottom line in that explaining how an ability work differently in different vehicles is not really an serious issue especially if it allows to better design the ability.

Now PLs lets move on.

how do you communicate the different effects of Tank ambush in tank hunter commanders?

That did not answer my question.
(I'm also with Katitof here, very small differences in the amount of the same bonus is not comparable to having the same ability give very different effects per vehicle. Tank ambush is simple: it gives all vehicles a First Strike bonus and severely limits their mobility - whether they get 15 or 20 sight range is irrelevant to most players.)


I also remember you were opposed to having multiple versions of the same thing earlier for the very same reason.

The current situation is simply silly and confusing
The 222, the luch, the Centaur and the Ostwind all use different mechanism they should simply become similar and simplified so that players had an idea of how these unit work.

That did not answer my question.

I did, in addition COH is actually notoriously bad in communicating the bonuses unit get so this will hardly be any different.

The in game description for Tank hunter ambush (Since you seem too lazy to check, I had to copy them):
"Ambush Tactics:
Anti-tank Gun crew and armored vehicles can conceal their positions and ambush the enemy"
not very informative...

Unit ability:
ATG: "Anti-tank Gun Ambush tactics
Anti-tank Gun puts Maskirokva camouflage training into practice.
Toggle ability. Anti-tank Gun moves at slower speed when toggled on."
not very informative...

Vehicles: "Tank Ambush
Tanks can hulldown their position and apply camouflage to ambush the enemy.
Toggle ability. Disables movement, but allow the vehicle to camouflage itself."
not very informative...

Actually halldown could describe the bonuses for each vehicle allot better.

(I'm also with Katitof here, very small differences in the amount of the same bonus is not comparable to having the same ability give very different effects per vehicle. Tank ambush is simple: it gives all vehicles a First Strike bonus and severely limits their mobility - whether they get 15 or 20 sight range is irrelevant to most players.)

Tank hunter ambush work differently in ATG and vehicles, it as simply as that, and it is hardly the only ability that work differently.

It should not be about talking sides...and actually continuing down this path is quite pointless. PLS move on.

I also remember you were opposed to having multiple versions of the same thing earlier for the very same reason.

You keep repeating this which is completely different issue.

Same type of weapons (auto-cannons in this case) using different mechanics serve no purpose balance wise it is simply confusing to the user.

Having custom made bonuses from an ability each helping the individual unit according to is role serves balance and it will hardly be confusing. And it now even unique.

Didn't they nerf it in one of the latest patched despite nbody using it?

The biggest problems with hull down currently can be summed up as follows:

- You still get outranged by tds (not sure about a hulled down Panther)
- It takes too long to move out of the hull down position
- You need Pios to "build" the hulldown
- StuGs can't rotate while being hulled down.

Imo the ability would be attractive if the vehicle could hull down all by itself (like the Coh1 ability) and instantly move out of hull down. StuGs should be able to rotate (not sure whether this can be animated).

The biggest problems with hull down currently can be summed up as follows:

- You still get outranged by tds (not sure about a hulled down Panther)
- It takes too long to move out of the hull down position
- You need Pios to "build" the hulldown

Not entirely true:

- Hulled Down Panther has 62.5 range.
(Also a shit-ton of effective HP with Hull Down and Command Panzer buffs)
- Removing Hull-Down is instant. Vehicle can move straight after disabling Hull-Down.
- All infantry can put tanks into Hull Down.

The biggest problem with Hull Down is simply that CoH2 tank warfare is very mobile by nature and there are very few scenarios in which you'd want to make your tanks immobile. No amount of (reasonable) bonusses is ever going to make that otherwise. It's a similar situation to British emplacements.

Hull Down Panther is one of the best things in the game though, if you can make it work. 62.5 range and 1600 effective HP IIRC if you got the Command Panzer nearby and it can take on two Allied TDs.

Not entirely true:

- Hulled Down Panther has 62.5 range.
(Also a shit-ton of effective HP with Hull Down and Command Panzer buffs)
- Removing Hull-Down is instant. Vehicle can move straight after disabling Hull-Down.
- All infantry can put tanks into Hull Down.

The biggest problem with Hull Down is simply that CoH2 tank warfare is very mobile by nature and there are very few scenarios in which you'd want to make your tanks immobile.

Hull Down Panther is one of the best things in the game though, if you can make it work. 62.5 range and 1500 effective HP IIRC if you got the Command Panzer nearby and it can take on two Allied TDs.

Hull down and Command panzer are separate abilities and available only to 1 commander . Giving their combine bonus creates a false picture.

Also your numbers about the Panther seem to be off.

Hull down and Command panzer are separate abilities and available only to 1 commander . Giving their combine bonus creates a false picture.

Lol how is it giving a false picture when I specifically mentioned using the two abilities together to get the result I presented?

Also your numbers about the Panther seem to be off.

You are right, it's actually 1600 effective HP.
(960 : 0.75 : 0.8 = 1600)

Lol how is it giving a false picture when I specifically mentioned using the two abilities together to get the result I presented?



You are right, it's actually 1600 effective HP.
(960 : 0.75 : 0.8 = 1600)

No you are still wrong

Command Panzer 4
We are reducing the bonuses of the Command Panzer IV’s aura to decrease its potency around units such as the Stug G and Panther that are either incredibly cost effective with increased durability or have high durability to begin with.
• Damage reduction lowered from 20% to 10%

Nope I am not, because that change never actually made it into the game. The Command Panzer 4 aura still gives 20% damage reduction in the current live version.

Nope I am not, because that change never actually made it into the game. The Command Panzer 4 aura still gives 20% damage reduction in the current live version.

Well it seem that patch-notes are wrong and that would explain why it the C.Panzer does not suck that much .

Then it is:
1.200 EHP for a Panther with C.Panzer IV
1.280 EHP for a Panther in hulldown
1.600 EHP for both

My point still stand giving bonuses for hulldown according to units role will help to balance the ability better making useful for more units and providing the necessary info is not that hard.

Guys, the point is making hull down an utility ability, not an immobile hulk.
ITs true that CmPz4 and hull down can be combined, but that fact can be ignored if you consider the fact the hulled down tank is completely immobile and it will be kited all the time

ITs true that CmPz4 and hull down can be combined, but that fact can be ignored if you consider the fact the hulled down tank is completely immobile and it will be kited all the time

Uhm, except that a Hull Down Panther can not be kited by anything because it outranges everything (except an ISU-152). It gets 62.5 range so it can return fire at any TD that shoots at it.

Uhm, except that a Hull Down Panther can not be kited by anything because it outranges everything (except an ISU-152). It gets 62.5 range so it can return fire at any TD that shoots at it.

Yeah because panthers now self spot for themselves...
We are also forgeting that M36 are ferrari tanks able to kite panthers on the move unless they blitz