Wehrmacht - Strategic Reserves - Feedback

So how's agrens after the latest patch buff? R they still UP?

Could not test them by myself yet but you can find mixed reactions on them in the different threads. Aerafield played some games with them and sid there are ok now, others still feel that they are underpowered.
I guess we just need a bigger sample size of games to get a final judjement.

It says that infantry can retreat to the Forward Supply Station but I can't figure out how it works. Units still retreat to base. Any ideas?

It says that infantry can retreat to the Forward Supply Station but I can't figure out how it works. Units still retreat to base. Any ideas?

UI error.

Though, judging by the feedback I am not sure if the position will be kept or not. We'll have to see when it gets discussed.

UI error.

Though, judging by the feedback I am not sure if the position will be kept or not. We'll have to see when it gets discussed.

I see absolutely no reason why the FSS can't be given the FHQ and OKW 223 treatment from the commander revamp patch a couple of months ago. Like I already mentioned, lower to number of repair pioneers down to 3 or 4, same as the number of other medics/repair units of the other Armies' similar abilities and make 1 or 2 upgrades that contains the Forward Retreat Point and Radio Relay, then just give it to the Command Post bunker and be done with it, simple as that.

As a team game player I can tell you right now that Ostheer isn't as popular as OKW due to the lack of as good Armor, that's why you see people massively going Jaeger Armor with the Elefant and Spotting Scopes or Tiger commanders, they have squishy infantry, that's why German Infantry or other doctrinal infantry commanders are also a nice pick, lack of advanced repair capabilities, something which is sort of mended by the revamped German Infantry and Defensive Doctrines and lack of Forward Retreat Point and they will be the only ones left if this doesn't go through since the Soviets now get it as well with their new Airborne commander.

Team games right now on the Axis side largely consist of only a single Ostheer/Wehrmacht player that provides the fuel caches and MG support and more often than not goes Jaeger Armor for the reasons stated above and that's about it. I've even seen all OKW teams where they just forgo Ostheer altogether and just spam PFs early game so they don't need the MG support and somebody goes Elite Armor for the 223s to lock down the fuel sectors at the very least.

I know that people will say I'm only defending it because it's "my baby" but whoever thinks that I'm lying can go ask other team game Axis people what their usual team composition is and what role does Ostheer serve, or what usual team composition does Allied team game players face and what the Ostheer player usually does.

I see absolutely no reason why the FSS can't be given the FHQ and OKW 223 treatment from the commander revamp patch a couple of months ago. Like I already mentioned, lower to number of repair pioneers down to 3 or 4, same as the number of other medics/repair units of the other Armies' similar abilities and make 1 or 2 upgrades that contains the Forward Retreat Point and Radio Relay, then just give it to the Command Post bunker and be done with it, simple as that.

As a team game player I can tell you right now that Ostheer isn't as popular as OKW due to the lack of as good Armor, that's why you see people massively going Jaeger Armor with the Elefant and Spotting Scopes or Tiger commanders, they have squishy infantry, that's why German Infantry or other doctrinal infantry commanders are also a nice pick, lack of advanced repair capabilities, something which is sort of mended by the revamped German Infantry and Defensive Doctrines and lack of Forward Retreat Point and they will be the only ones left if this doesn't go through since the Soviets now get it as well with their new Airborne commander.

Team games right now on the Axis side largely consist of only a single Ostheer/Wehrmacht player that provides the fuel caches and MG support and more often than not goes Jaeger Armor for the reasons stated above and that's about it. I've even seen all OKW teams where they just forgo Ostheer altogether and just spam PFs early game so they don't need the MG support and somebody goes Elite Armor for the 223s to lock down the fuel sectors at the very least.

I know that people will say I'm only defending it because it's "my baby" but whoever thinks that I'm lying can go ask other team game Axis people what their usual team composition is and what role does Ostheer serve.

I mean, I think we have to admit that FSS is very good idea, but it completely doesn't fit this commander since it would be insta-pick in all kind of situations.

I mean, I think we have to admit that FSS is very good idea, but it completely doesn't fit this commander since it would be insta-pick in all kind of situations.

I doubt it, as people said the AG feel underwhelming at times, not my words btw and you cannot stall for the Ace most times. And the doctrine doesn't provide you with any off map support so you're only left relying on the Panzer IV H for the most part and believe me, that is not enough for people to just pick it instead of Jaeger Armor.

This commander already has pioneer upgrade which makes them repair things faster, why would he need FSS with even more engis? Furthermore, ostheer already has good abilities to reinforce on the field (bunkers, halftruck, teammates OKW truck etc). This commander had strong "recon" ability (radio intercept) that got deleted. The good recon ability is what made him unique and good, I think this commander needs good recon ability instead of FSS, I was thinking about something like the OKW early flare system, or maybe even something similiar to the spy network from the soviet partisan tactics.

This commander already has pioneer upgrade which makes them repair things faster, why would he need FSS with even more engis? Furthermore, ostheer already has good abilities to reinforce on the field (bunkers, halftruck, teammates OKW truck etc). This commander had strong "recon" ability (radio intercept) that got deleted. The good recon ability is what made him unique and good, I think this commander needs good recon ability instead of FSS, I was thinking about something like the OKW early flare system, or maybe even something similiar to the spy network from the soviet partisan tactics.

Ostheer is the only Army in the game currently which is consistently stuck with only being able to repair with their Pioneers, only the German Infantry and Defensive doctrines mend that.

All other Armies have other options to I would say better/faster repair. A few examples being for instance the OKW where their Sturmpioneers can get a slight repair speed buff if they are upgraded with the minesweeper, they also have the Mech HQ truck repair pioneer upgrade and the doctrinal Vehicle Crew repairs from Elite Armor.

The UKF is sort of in the similar situation albeit their repair sappers are locked in the Emplacements Regiment but they still have Vehicle Crew Repairs in 3 of their other more popular commanders which I deem is a superior alternative.

I won't even mention the USF because they probably have the best repairs available to any Army as their crews can just jump out and repair and also cap at the same time mind you.

And then we come to the Soviets who have a plethora of options available to them in most if not almost every commander of theirs. They have the upgrade package for their Conscripts which gives their mainline unit a very nice utility option, they have vehicle crew repairs and they have the repair engineers as well from the Soviet Industry commander that I see many people choose on urban maps so they have a superior alternative repair option pretty much 90% of the time again if not more.

As far as the FSS specifically is concerned it has 3 jobs, providing the Army with a Forward Retreat Point because they are the only ones lacking it right now meaning that they're severely outclassed in the Infantry play on bigger (team) maps, repair pioneers because of above mentioned reasons and the Recon Relay which I mentioned multiple times should be done like the OKW one was and just given as an upgrade to the FSS (in the case of the OKW it was given as an upgrade to the 223) with which I don't see any problems with.

Guys, if you wanna see "Strategic Reserves" and the other new 3.0 doctrines in action then i can recommend Tightrope's twitch channel.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/405892349

Gives you good impressions of Assgrens etc.

6 engineers become too much reduce them to 3 - 4

I would recommend adding the concrete repair bunker from Defensive Doctrine to the Forward Supply Station ability. It's less map-dependent that way, and works more like the British and Soviet equivalents.

Vipper's feedback:

CP 0 Assault Grenadiers
Unit seem to Up, with same cost as Assault engineer it has allot less utility and can not get an early flamer while generally it is facing unit that are good close range

Compared to CP 1 Cav riflemen it has less utility and can upgrade to less firepower since they can get 2 Thompson +1 bar.

The upgrade comes really late and even then the units is UP for cost. Total cost is 306+60 mu yet the performance is far from that.

Suggestion:
Possible change could include some of the following:
Replacing sprint with "diversion" (Ostheer officer) then units could be more useful in working together with grenadiers defending them from enemy units the close in.

Model units after Cav riflmen allow 2 STGs upgrade.

Replace the individual upgrade with a global upgrade similar to bolster infatry and units after upgrade could come as 6 men.

Replace the unit with Panzer-Pionier unit modeled after USF Assault engineers.
Change vet bonuses to include a reinforcement discount.

One might need to change CP or cost after these changes.

CP 0 Forward supply Station
In game description say it can work also as forward retreat point while it does not seem so.

Ability is currently OP on certain maps, the difference in CP from the UKF one is also weird.
Suggestion:
Generally about this abilities I would suggest:
Building returns to full health once upgrade, maybe remove set of fire critical but increase damage from flame weapons.

Ability allow upgrade to building allow player to decide how much he want to invest.
For instance:
150MP/20fu gives you 2 engineer
100MP/10fu upgrade now add 2 more engineers
100MP/10fu upgrade now allow reinforcement

Specifically about Ostheer one could add a Reckon plane with single pass and the repair bunker.

CP 0 Panzer IV H
Moving unit to HQ was a good change.

Suggestion:
Imo one should modeling Panzer IV H after Sherman 76 with 2 firing mode HE and AP. The unit would be more useful.

The rear armor of the unit need to be increased.
Combat blitz should be replaced by blitzkrieg.

CP 2 (passive)Breakthrough Equipment
PG grenade seems useful

Pioneer upgrade seems to expensive investing 30+30-30+60 munition in 4 men pioneers seem to much especially compared to 5 men pioneer squad available to infatry doctrine the can repair 25% faster than normal engineers.

Satchel in a 4 men squad will probably have limited uses.

Destroy cover as a map manipulation ability is very strong.

Suggestion:
I would suggest the following:
merge the upgrade to minesweepers upgrade for repair speed and destroy cover
and to flamer for satchel so that they become available for no extra munition cost

Increase the Cd on destroy cover for all units maybe add 5 mu cost.

CP 15 Tiger Ace
The commander animation seem weird.

This unit does not seem enough to sell the commander.

Suggestion:
Have the commander appear only when spearhead is on, it will also make sense with extended vision.

I would either replace the unit or change the mechanism to be more interesting.

General:
The commander seem to be badly designed:
Repair available from pioneers, supply station and self-repair for Tiger. It is simply too much overlap.

Commander provides "superior" infatry, superior medium and Super heavy making the commander weaker in 1vs1 more powerful in 4vs4. From design point of view commander should get improve units is some area and not so many.

Suggestion:
One could test some of the following changes
Replace the Panzer IV H with the Panzer IV D modeled after T-34/76. That would allow players to afford both Panzer IV D and Tiger in 1vs1.

Replace the Tiger with Stuka/JP/hezter/luch or some other ability and redesign the Panzer IV H after Sherman 76. That would allow the Panzer to counter units like the KV-1, Churchill...that currently require building stug or Panther.

Replace assault grenadier with mortar HT that is currently inferior to the USF one, leaving the commander "weaker" in infatry but focuses on armor.

Another option would be to use the 6 men pioneer squad from the campaign.

What Vipper says makes sense for the most part and brings me to the thought that since this commander or doctrine or whatever you wanna call it is as far I can tell based on the elite "Großdeutschland" division which was a highly mechanized and elite unit of the Heer that served for the most part on the Eastern Front and was at several crucial battles such as Kursk, the Rzhev Meatgrinder and Kharkov. In essence they were a highly mobile reserve force often called in to plug gaps in the frontline or push out Soviet punches in the German lines.

So if the Assault Grenadiers and Tiger Ace are proving too hard to handle in terms of balance and design replacing them with Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers or a Mechanized group with a 250 HT and replacing the Ace with a normal Tiger or a KT wouldn't be too far off from reality and the theme of the commander.

I mean they even had stuff like Recon and Fusilier units which are represented with the Jaegers and Panzerfusiliers from the OKW basically so there's lots of options.

Just fix current Osteehr. A lot focus is centred around Commanders. Fix Pzgrens and Ostwind. Underperforming for its price. They need fixes.

I do like the "Strategic Reserves" though with Assault Grenadiers at least being used more often. Here is a fix. Replace them with Pzgrens and surely we would be better off since Pzgrens are currently lackluster.

That is what Pzgrens definitely what it needs. To take less damage then it currently does or to make them survive better.

I still think their cost should be reduced to 300 manpower because there no is reason for them costing that much. If we talk about Obersoldaten, yes they deserve a cost of 340 manpower but definitely not Pzgrens for their overall lacking durability, capability, utility and firepower in comparison.

It needs changes. It will help boost Osteehr in some ways for their lacking units.

Fix Pzgrens
Fix Ostwind
Then, it will solve most of Osteehrs issues.

Just fix current Osteehr. A lot focus is centred around Commanders. Fix Pzgrens and Ostwind. Underperforming for its price. They need fixes.

I do like the "Strategic Reserves" though with Assault Grenadiers at least being used more often. Here is a fix. Replace them with Pzgrens and surely we would be better off since Pzgrens are currently lackluster.

That is what Pzgrens definitely what it needs. To take less damage then it currently does or to make them survive better.

I still think their cost should be reduced to 300 manpower because there no is reason for them costing that much. If we talk about Obersoldaten, yes they deserve a cost of 340 manpower but definitely not Pzgrens for their overall lacking durability, capability, utility and firepower in comparison.

It needs changes. It will help boost Osteehr in some ways for their lacking units.

Fix Pzgrens
Fix Ostwind
Then, it will solve most of Osteehrs issues.

New commander/revamp commanders are separate issues from faction balance and should be adressed separately.

This thread and patch are about new commanders so lets not confuse the issues.

Anyone who thinks that Assgrens are too weak should look Momo's twitch channel. Aerafield played so damn well with them and they are pretty good with veterancy.

Anyone who thinks that Assgrens are too weak should look Momo's twitch channel. Aerafield played so damn well with them and they are pretty good with veterancy.

Thank you

Do you think it would be too strong if they get the 15mun medic kits added back to vet 1, like it was in the past?

Thank you

Do you think it would be too strong if they get the 15mun medic kits added back to vet 1, like it was in the past?

I dont think it would cause major problems but the commander seems already very strong to me, thats why i would not include it. If the patch goes live and the unit could need a slight buff then the mod team should go back to your idea.

CP 0 Assault Grenadiers
Unit seem to Up, with same cost as Assault engineer it has allot less utility and can not get an early flamer while generally it is facing unit that are good close range

Compared to CP 1 Cav riflemen it has less utility and can upgrade to less firepower since they can get 2 Thompson +1 bar.

The upgrade comes really late and even then the units is UP for cost. Total cost is 306+60 mu yet the performance is far from that.

Suggestion:
Possible change could include some of the following:
Replacing sprint with "diversion" (Ostheer officer) then units could be more useful in working together with grenadiers defending them from enemy units the close in.

...

I think assgrens are fine as they are right now. At vet 3 with the model upgrade they become the most durable squad in the game aside from shocktroopers, with 0,57%~ RA and 6 models (patch adds a total of -7%~ RA). Combine this with their low pop requirement of 5(+1) and 26mp reinforcement cost, which makes them efficient infantry, even though they have a lackluster damage profile.

To me, diversion wouldn't be worth it. What you get for 25 munitions:
1. 25% moving accuracy -> Not noticable on a weapon that has negligble dps at range >10.
2. 25% less RA -> Might allow you to lose one less model on the approach.

Sprint achieves the same goal (getting in hug range without sustaining too much damage) for only 10 munitions, while providing more utility. Unless they lowered the cost of diversion to 15-20 munitions and changed moving accuracy into accuracy, I'd prefer sprint.

CP 0 Panzer IV H
...

Suggestion:
Imo one should modeling Panzer IV H after Sherman 76 with 2 firing mode HE and AP. The unit would be more useful.

The rear armor of the unit need to be increased.
Combat blitz should be replaced by blitzkrieg.

Panzer IV H doesn't need firing modes, it already has lower scatter over the Ostheer Panzer IV.
Agreed with other suggestions.

CP 2 (passive)Breakthrough Equipment
...

Suggestion:
I would suggest the following:
merge the upgrade to minesweepers upgrade for repair speed and destroy cover
and to flamer for satchel so that they become available for no extra munition cost

Increase the Cd on destroy cover for all units maybe add 5 mu cost.

Wholeheartedly agreed with these suggestions. Pgren smoke could then be removed, cause the commander slot would be strong enough IMO.

General:
The commander seem to be badly designed:
Repair available from pioneers, supply station and self-repair for Tiger. It is simply too much overlap.

Commander provides "superior" infatry, superior medium and Super heavy making the commander weaker in 1vs1 more powerful in 4vs4. From design point of view commander should get improve units is some area and not so many.

Suggestion:
One could test some of the following changes
Replace the Panzer IV H with the Panzer IV D modeled after T-34/76. That would allow players to afford both Panzer IV D and Tiger in 1vs1.

Replace the Tiger with Stuka/JP/hezter/luch or some other ability and redesign the Panzer IV H after Sherman 76. That would allow the Panzer to counter units like the KV-1, Churchill...that currently require building stug or Panther.

Replace assault grenadier with mortar HT that is currently inferior to the USF one, leaving the commander "weaker" in infatry but focuses on armor.

Another option would be to use the 6 men pioneer squad from the campaign.

I feel the main problem of this doctrine is the lack of synergy between the Panzer 4 H slot and the Tiger Ace slot, I see little reason why I would need both, even more so because the Panzer 4 H allows me to skip T3 for T4. I would personally remove the Tiger, replace it with either panzer tactician, hull down, CAS AT strafe or something similar and call it a day. But considering this was the chosen theme for this commander, I don't think it would happen.

I don't feel the commander would have balance issues tho. The high cost of the Panzer 4 H and Tiger Ace balances things out. It's more of an options commanders, like USF mechanized.

...
To me, diversion wouldn't be worth it.
...

The idea behind timed abilities for QCQ unit is that these unit are rather difficult to balance and this could provide a solution.

They either seem to bleed too much or rolfstop enemy units. A timed ability would allow the unit to be good but only a limited time.

...
Panzer IV H doesn't need firing modes, it already has lower scatter over the Ostheer Panzer IV.
Agreed with other suggestions.
...

The idea behind PzIV switchable munition is not to increase the AI but the AT, similar to 76mm Sherman. The PzIV have trouble penetrating anything above allied mediums and this change could make the Panzer H better vs those units.